At what point does the Law of Diminishing Returns kick in?

[Jwills57]

I look at a company like Collings. Just for me personally, I love the entire ethos, the entire culture of the company. I would never say that a $5,500 Collings guitars is "better" than a $3,500 Martin guitar. I've played too many great guitars that were less expensive and too many so-so guitars that were more expensive--lesson learned. But I know when I buy a Collings the guitar will be incredibly well designed and constructed to the highest standard. Collings is obsessive about that level of perfection in their instruments. I know the guitar will sound like it's supposed to sound for that model and materials, a sound not arrived at by hit-or-miss efforts. And I know that a massive amount of thought and effort has gone into everything I've mentioned. So for me, I am willing to pay more for this ethos, this culture. It makes the guitars more expensive, for sure, but for me it's worth it.

[Mandobart]

....immediately. The real question is "at what point do I decide I've reached the optimum performance for this particular investment?"

Is a $400 guitar twice as good as a $200 guitar? Is an $800 guitar twice as good as a $400 guitar? Probably yes for me. Is it for you?

Factors affecting price charged by builder or seller: builder/manufacturer, materials used, cost of labor and tools, cost of shipping, time required to build, volume sold, desired profit margin. Surely people can think of more.

Factors affecting value to buyer: builder/manufacturer, materials used, cosmetics, tone, playability, country of origin, rarity/uniqueness, warranty/service, resale value retention, lead (build/shipping/production) time, price. Again there doubtless more.

The goal for me is optimizing those buyer's factors. After playing Gibsons, Martins, Eastmans, Preston Thompson, Collings and Bourgeois bluegrass dreads, I bought a very lightly used Martin HD-28 for about $1850. I could have bought a new one for about $2400. I could have bought a new Collings dread for about $3500. The Thompson and Bourgeois were higher. My Martin hit all the marks for me at a very good price. The more expensive options to me did not provide enough additional value to warrant the additional cost. The Martin I bought was "enough better" than the less expensive options to make it worth it to me.

The Law of Diminishing Returns for me wasn't based on a fixed price point; it was based on this specific purchase and the options available.

[scotchnspeed]

...and I'm just over here wanting to know where one is getting new Froggies for $6,000...inquiring minds want to know!

[TBman]

Originally Posted by Mandobart

....immediately. The real question is "at what point do I decide I've reached the optimum performance for this particular investment?"

Is a $400 guitar twice as good as a $200 guitar? Is an $800 guitar twice as good as a $400 guitar? Probably yes for me. Is it for you?

Factors affecting price charged by builder or seller: builder/manufacturer, materials used, cost of labor and tools, cost of shipping, time required to build, volume sold, desired profit margin. Surely people can think of more.

Factors affecting value to buyer: builder/manufacturer, materials used, cosmetics, tone, playability, country of origin, rarity/uniqueness, warranty/service, resale value retention, lead (build/shipping/production) time, price. Again there doubtless more.

The goal for me is optimizing those buyer's factors. After playing Gibsons, Martins, Eastmans, Preston Thompson, Collings and Bourgeois bluegrass dreads, I bought a very lightly used Martin HD-28 for about $1850. I could have bought a new one for about $2400. I could have bought a new Collings dread for about $3500. The Thompson and Bourgeois were higher. My Martin hit all the marks for me at a very good price. The more expensive options to me did not provide enough additional value to warrant the additional cost. The Martin I bought was "enough better" than the less expensive options to make it worth it to me.

The Law of Diminishing Returns for me wasn't based on a fixed price point; it was based on this specific purchase and the options available.

Good points. Once an instrument meets our baseline requirements - tone, fit and finish, etc. the "why pay more" thought process takes over.

[darinbu]

I think this is a money question, not a guitar question.

For a person with little money who is in debt, the law of diminishing returns kicks in at a very low price. To such a person, the added pleasure of a better guitar isn't worth the added stress of going further into debt, so he/she shouldn't do it.

But for a wealthy person, looking for something to do with excess funds, buying a better guitar may be an excellent way to gain pleasure by spending money he/she won't even miss. Maybe that person can't think of a better thing to do with that ~ $5000 he/she doesn't need anyway.

[FrankHudson]

Charles Tauber said a lot of what I would have said, and said it better and with more experience behind it. But let just focus in on something he covered obliquely:

What pleases us as players, what we consider good, better, best or fitting or entertaining is not some fixed hierarchy. Therefore it's impossible for there to be for a fixed and universal hierarchy of good, better, best guitars among a group of players such as ourselves. We value different things and some of those things conflict.

For someone like myself, who uses his guitars for pleasure, to compose on, and for practical, logistical reasons to record stuff in different genres where the guitar appears in different contexts I don't even have a fixed hierarchy of my own guitars. One day in one mood, one day for one kind of piece, I might choose one or another. Some here have many guitars too, so surely this must be true for them as well. My Martin 00-15 cost me more than twice what my Seagull Folk cost me, I play both of them with pleasure and would clearly pick one over another for different pieces. For some months last year and up until this spring I had an opportunity to try a fair number new Taylor and Martin standard line guitars* at a local store that I visited nearly every week. I played more three dozen over about a year, including nearly everything that was smaller than a dread. Overall summary: to my debased ear and needs this field of roughly $800-$2500 guitars didn't compel me to buy one. I spent what would have been my guitar money on recording stuff instead.

I don't know if I had such an experience playing upper four figure guitars, much less vintage collectors grade instruments would have been different. Honestly, I'd still guess it would be, but then I would have guessed that a Taylor in their stock would have appealed to me before I played a bunch of them.

So what's that say about diminishing returns and sweet spots and punches above it's weight and you get what you pay for and other similar subjects? It says that music consists of different varying sounds, and has considerable pleasure over a broad range of sounds.


*They had other brands as well, including imported Guilds. Two guitars there that I kind of liked that weren't Martin or Taylor were a used upper end Yamaha (played it the last day before the pandemic closed the store for easy browsing) and a cheap Gretsch 12-fret 00 that had way more character than it's price tag would suggest. If there was one more upper in the store's price range guitar that I wished I'd pulled the trigger on it was a standard series Martin 00-18. That one wasn't there long. Did that Gretsch sound better than the than Martin 00-18? For more things, most things, no. But that Gretsch sure sounded different in an engaging way to me.

Another factor: I was, and still am, to some degree looking for a 00 to 000/OM Martinish style guitar with rosewood b&s, but for whatever reason, they never had one of those. If they'd had a wall of Eastmans in that area I might have found something, but I've never played an Eastman.

[KevinH]

Originally Posted by jaymarsch

Another factor that comes into the equation is how good is the player who is playing the guitars? All of my guitars from my lower end factory guitar to my most expensive custom built guitar sound infinitely better since I have become a more proficient player. So relative to the amount of money that I have paid for each, have they increased in value? They have to me. ...

Exactly what I was thinking.

When I started playing guitar many years ago and was struggling with an F-chord, my (at the time) $20 built-like-a-tank Ventura Gibson-knockoff was all I needed. My price point of diminishing returns was very low. Spending money on an expensive guitar would have been a waste because I could make it sound just as bad as my Ventura. As a player becomes more proficient, the improvements in playability, intonation, tone, etc that tend to come with more expensive instruments become more important and perhaps worthy of the added expense. So the price point of diminishing returns goes up.

The best way to find your own point of diminishing returns is to go play as many guitars as you can and see where you're at.

[sdelsolray]

How long is a piece of string?

[Taylor Ham]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

I think the law of diminishing returns kicks in differently for different people. Honestly, there are people who can't tell a tonal difference between a $500 guitar and a $5000 guitar, and God bless 'em. They are not beset with as expensive a case of GAS as others. In the electric world, there are those who can't tell the difference between the playability and sound of an inexpensive Epi and a very, very nice Les Paul. God bless 'em.

I have sat in a room with multiple $7-12k custom-built acoustics with my $1700-$2400 factory acoustics and have not felt the least bit bad about mine. Could I hear differences? Yes indeed. Were the more expensive ones better that mine? Hmmm... I talked with a guy who had a gorgeous $10k hand-built guitar with an impressive pedigree that had a terrible action that he'd been struggling to get rectified for a year. The main feature of the guitar was its beautiful inlays. I liked the sound and playability of my run-of-the-mill guitars that had been given proper setups by my luthier/tech better than that one.

That is entirely anecdotal. I'm sure there are more expensive guitars than mine that will blow them out of the water. God bless 'em!

Uniformity is the bugaboo of individuality.

Bob

For some listeners, it's probably around $8- the price of a set of strings. Assuming you already have a guitar that needs a string change.

[FrankHudson]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

How long is a piece of string?

Is that a one-ended or two-ended string? And is it coated? And you should try Monel.

[archerscreek]

I think it depends on the individual player and the guitars being compared. A less skilled player might not be able to take advantage of the improved tone up the neck that a more expensive guitar might deliver. A hard driving bluegrass player might even sound worse on a more expensive guitar if it was built for light finger style playing.

[llew]

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

Is that a one-ended or two-ended string? And is it coated? And you should try Monel.

Perfect!!!

[Willie_D]

At what point does it cease to be about the guitar and become vanity?

[fazool]

Originally Posted by PowerTube

At what point does the Law of Diminishing Returns kick in?

It doesn't.

Can you tell at which "point" this curve changes direction?

[Arthur Blake]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

I think the law of diminishing returns kicks in differently for different people. Bob

Very true. Depends on how you play.

Originally Posted by ghostnote

I look at those as what they are: beautiful works of art with magnificent tone, that, for me, aren't something I need.

I've played guitars that are beautiful works of art that don't sound great, - zero interest for me.

Originally Posted by jaymarsch

Another factor that comes into the equation is how good is the player who is playing the guitars? All of my guitars from my lower end factory guitar to my most expensive custom built guitar sound infinitely better since I have become a more proficient player.

I can relate to what Larry posted - most impressive guitars that I have ever played were a 1952 Herman Hauser II classical - $30,000 price tag
Best,
Jayne

The fascinating part if you are serious about refining your abilities and practicing to create exceptional music - a better guitar, over time - can make you a much better player, at least is has for me. I had a pawn shop Fender 12 string for probably 25 years and never really got any better. After 4 years with a Martin Authentic, after having first 5 frets replaced, and set up for me, my playing has advanced to an unbelievable degree. It sounded simply fantastic this morning. Prior to this I spent two years trying to do the same with my Blueridge BR243A and never really succeeded. Same wood species, same body size.

Originally Posted by darinbu

I think this is a money question, not a guitar question.

Sometimes the money follows desire. You can usually save up. I remember quite well hovering my finger over the "order button" on a $700 guitar and deciding I really just could not afford it, putting responsible priorities first. Then a couple of years later, wound up spending a lot more.