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Old 10-25-2020, 11:42 AM
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Default Recording acoustic guitar as part of a mix?

I have a question about recording acoustic guitar (or other acoustic instruments: banjo, mandolin, etc.) as part of an overall song with multiple instruments. This will include vocals, bass, etc. Do you record the guitar or other instruments as mono with one microphone, mono with two microphones, or stereo (two microphones)? I know the panning will usually be done in the mix, but what yields the best overall sound?

I would think one would approach a guitar only recording more as a stereo recording, but when in a mix it might be handled differently?

I will be starting on a new recording of a song I wrote soon. This will have vocals, drums (EZ Drummer), acoustic guitar, octave mandolin, mandolin, bass guitar, and maybe banjo. How would you record the individual parts? Also, for this mic, how would you pan each instrument?

Vocals: center
Acoustic guitar: right
Mandolin: left
Octave mandolin: left
Drums: slightly right
Banjo: right

Would something like the above be correct? Also, how far right and left do you pan? Just off center axis or farther?
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Old 10-25-2020, 12:22 PM
DukeX DukeX is offline
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Just a bedroom demo guy here, but I'd probably use a single LDC. Drums down the middle. The instrument of who's singing (if only one singer) should be panned along somewhere near their vocals IMO.
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Old 10-25-2020, 12:44 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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You don't mention the bass guitar in your panning scheme. "Conventional Wisdom" prescribes panning your elements with a lot of low-frequency content in the center. Meaning in your case, bass, kick drum and maybe snare. This was originally to keep a lathe's cutter-head happy and to keep the end user's needle from hopping out of the groove, but it's also a good idea for other reasons. Not a rule, though.

As for your main question, I'd record the guitar, mandos and banjo with one mic apiece.
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Old 10-25-2020, 01:13 PM
FrankHudson FrankHudson is offline
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I hesitate to respond, even though I do what you're doing fairly regularly for a few years, because I have no reason to believe I'm doing it the "right way.*" With luck you'll get better, more experienced responses.

Just as you indicate, I think recording acoustic guitar in a mix is a different task that recording a voice and guitar piece or an instrumental solo guitar track. I often record the acoustic guitar with two mics anyway, but they are often miss-matched mics meant to give me choices other than EQ to change the sound of the guitar. It's not uncommon for me to drop the second mic from the mix as I evaluate the mix, typically leaving a single LDC aimed at the body/neck joint maybe 10" or so away. Some mixes have several other instruments, but the acoustic guitar is the main harmonic information, then I think keeping a wider, "stereo" effect from two mics can work.

In a full band mix I tend to go "dry" with the acoustic guitar. The kind of thing that a lot of solo guitarists or singer/guitarists here like in a guitar sound I avoid. Light on the reverb or delay (just enough so the guitar doesn't sound like it was DI'ed). And I tend to favor smaller bodies and guitars that don't have lush overtones or great sustain. Electric bass players and left hand keyboards can fill in a lot the low end that solo guitars like in their dreadnaughts. And since I'm often working with piano or piano-ish keyboards I don't need my acoustic guitar to have "piano like sustain" when there's a piano doing that in the mix.

What would really improve my final product and something that for reasons of time and skill I don't do enough is to record guitar and vocal as separate tracks (EDIT: I meant separate passes, not just two mics going into individual tracks, which'll bleed), Listeners connect with the vocal, everything else is decoration and setting. I'm not a good vocalist, so anything less than my best vocal track harms the final mix even more so. And it's near impossible to keep the guitar and vocal from bleeding into each others' tracks, which means that you can't really place, EQ, spot fix etc with the vocal and guitar tracked together. Yes, great singers and better guitarists can produce great recordings where they track both together, but even though you don't mention this, it's something to consider. Whatever you do: optimize the vocal. The rest is secondary. Yes, I'm usually near center with the main vocal.

Some people have a regular recipe for placement in a mix. Some like to spread it out more including 100% pans. I've listened to some generic ideas of stereo placement and personally I generally don't like the wide spreads, but maybe I'm not doing it right or my tastes are just different. I try to separate by moderate panning instruments in like registers whose parts overlap, but even a 40% or 50% spread is most often far enough to my taste. EQ can also help in a busy mix. The lovely thing about modern DAWs with automation curves and such is that you can easily "season to taste" as you're learning what you like or if you don't feel a mix is working.

Another way to help figure out what you like or what to aim for is to listen to commercial recordings that you think are working and analyze how they pan the tracks.

Another thing you don't mention, but can be worth considering (I'm always telling my own self to consider it more too) is that just because you have a lot of tracks and ideas to be expressed in those tracks doesn't mean you need to have them running through the whole song. Even having something as fundamental as drums or bass "play rests" or drop out and rejoin for a section can really bring an arrangement and mix to life.

Maybe some of this helps. Others here will probably have further and likely better advice.

.


*Yes, I also believe that art has huge subjective components, so that there can't be a universal "right way" -- but I also believe that a better technician would produce recording that I would immediately think are better than the ones I engineer myself.
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Last edited by FrankHudson; 10-25-2020 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 10-25-2020, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoneDigger View Post
I have a question about recording acoustic guitar (or other acoustic instruments: banjo, mandolin, etc.) as part of an overall song with multiple instruments. This will include vocals, bass, etc. Do you record the guitar or other instruments as mono with one microphone, mono with two microphones, or stereo (two microphones)? I know the panning will usually be done in the mix, but what yields the best overall sound?

I would think one would approach a guitar only recording more as a stereo recording, but when in a mix it might be handled differently?

I will be starting on a new recording of a song I wrote soon. This will have vocals, drums (EZ Drummer), acoustic guitar, octave mandolin, mandolin, bass guitar, and maybe banjo. How would you record the individual parts? Also, for this mic, how would you pan each instrument?

Vocals: center
Acoustic guitar: right
Mandolin: left
Octave mandolin: left
Drums: slightly right
Banjo: right

Would something like the above be correct? Also, how far right and left do you pan? Just off center axis or farther?
Hi BD

For multi-track songs, I have always 'set' the pan amount and direction in post.

I adjusted pan by feel as well as design, and after testing it in a number of devices. I never got too wide, because most systems (think average cars) don't tend to reproduce surround sound or extreme wide mixes well.

I have recorded guitars in both single and dual channel. The more individual track recording I did, my tendency was to record instruments in 2 channels, and then I had the option of choosing either single channel, or the dual-channel mix.

And unless it was a solo guitar (with no vocals) the star of the show was the vocals and not the instruments. Doesn't mean I didn't record the instruments with care, but if it was a vocal piece, the vocals got the most attention.

If it was a vocal with a guitar-solo, that I pulled back to the center to focus attention on it.

I tried to mix so if I brought it all back to mono it still sounded great.



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Old 10-25-2020, 03:51 PM
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Doug Young Doug Young is offline
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Mid-side is a nice micing technique for times when you're not sure what you will want to do in a mix. You can simply ignore the side mic and have mono, or dial in any stereo width you want, while staying mono-compatible. if you don't have a figure-8 mic to do this with, XY will also be 99.9% mono compatible, so you could record using XY, and decide to go mono or stereo later.
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Old 10-25-2020, 04:33 PM
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As others have noted ultimately there is no absolute right or wrong.

I assume you meant for this mix not, "for this mic" end of your third paragraph ?

As Brent noted the conventional wisdom is vocals, bass and drums more or less up the middle.

Here is how I would start (if the acoustic is to be the main guitar rhythm element) I like recording in stereo, but on two mono tracks . I do this because as a main rhythm instrument, I like to pan it stereo but only about 45 to 60 left and right. but if you change your mind you can all ways just pan both tracks to the same off set L or R position

If it is to be a melody/riff /highlight, element along with the other acoustic instruments just go mono and it can sit one side or the other, your preference .

Drums as Brent noted I like kick and straight up the middle but I will sometimes slightly pan the snare, HH, crash , ride and or toms, as per how they would appear from audience perspective.

While different panning positions is one way to make the instruments more discernible, different subtractive EQ on similar frequency instruments, is also just as important .
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Last edited by KevWind; 10-25-2020 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 10-25-2020, 05:04 PM
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Bob Womack Bob Womack is offline
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This is an application I do quite often. The answer is... it depends. I typically record acoustic for ensemble stereo because it leaves open more options in the mix. I also typically double- or triple-track acoustic guitar. Huh? There is a very good reason why.

That solo intro on acoustic guitar? If you can get a good doubling or tripling, it can be really fat. However, every guitar you add decreases intimacy, so its a trade-off.

And when the vocals and ensemble come in? There's nothing better than carving out space for the vocal in the center buy having two guitars outboard. It also contributes to the stereo complexity of the mix, if you want that.

And about that third guitar, the tripling? I think it was studio great Dick Wagner (could have been Steve Hunter) who talked about the magic third instrument. What is the idea of the magic third? The brain is a "difference machine." If you feed it two of anything it sits there and analyses the two, looking for differences. Any discontinuity stands out like a sore thumb, especially if you pan them all of the way outboard. However, if you add a third, it the group suddenly turns into an ensemble and a chorus effect occurs. The trick is to sneak the third one up in the center loud enough to cause the chorus effect but low enough to prevent challenging the vocals.

And recording stereo? You may not need it. But during that intro, a stereo array will allow the guitar to add stereo interest to the mix. You never know which take is going to end up the master and in the modern DAW world there aren't track limitations so go ahead and record stereo! you can spit the tracks and use one if you like.

Oh yes - panning. If there is a drum kit, the best layout is "audience perspective," hi-hat on the right. I typically pan it off to the right pretty far because the right-handed brain wants to hear high-end and activity on the right. That does leave a high-end hole on the left, and that is where I typically emphasize the acoustic guitar. And strumming? That is where a 12 string guitar with its extra octave really shines.

One more thing: Everyone around here encourages heavier strings and picks. If the guitar is in an ensemble, its a pretty fair bet it is supposed to be a rhythm instrument. Unless you carve out a bunch of the bottom it is going to muddy up the middle of the mix. The percussion of the instrument becomes really important. As a result, I carry a wide selection of picks with me, everything from moderately thick to very thin. The pick slap of a thin pick helps the acoustic guitar as a rhythm instrument cut through.

There's never been a better time to come into recording.

Bob
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Last edited by Bob Womack; 10-26-2020 at 05:00 AM.
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Old 10-25-2020, 06:52 PM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoneDigger View Post
I have a question about recording acoustic guitar (or other acoustic instruments: banjo, mandolin, etc.) as part of an overall song with multiple instruments. This will include vocals, bass, etc. Do you record the guitar or other instruments as mono with one microphone, mono with two microphones, or stereo (two microphones)? I know the panning will usually be done in the mix, but what yields the best overall sound?

I would think one would approach a guitar only recording more as a stereo recording, but when in a mix it might be handled differently?

I will be starting on a new recording of a song I wrote soon. This will have vocals, drums (EZ Drummer), acoustic guitar, octave mandolin, mandolin, bass guitar, and maybe banjo. How would you record the individual parts? Also, for this mic, how would you pan each instrument?

Vocals: center
Acoustic guitar: right
Mandolin: left
Octave mandolin: left
Drums: slightly right
Banjo: right

Would something like the above be correct? Also, how far right and left do you pan? Just off center axis or farther?
When you start doing multi-tracked recordings then stereo miking becomes much less important, or even discernible in any concrete way.

My advice, for what it's worth, is to record each instrument with a single mic used in the best position possible in the best acoustic environment you have available.

Think about which instruments you want to get across the feeling of the song or tune you are recording. In other words, don't put everything on a track that you know how to play.

This might not fit in with how you approach ensemble playing, but music without bass is simply lacking a lot of the impact it could otherwise have. Bass almost always fits, where drums often don't fit a lot of acoustic performance. There are exceptions, but that's my perspective. I've performed quite a bit publicly, and a full trap set is often the most difficult thing to integrate into live acoustic music. (I also have a pretty good case of tinnitus from having a ride cymbal in my right ear all those years... )

Do make sure to add your bass part in! I'm assuming you forgot to include it in your list.

As far as mixing, once you have everything in your DAW your most important step comes BEFORE you hit play. Close your eyes and envision a stage in front of you with the players represented by the instruments you have recorded.

Use volume and panning to position them on your imaginary soundstage. Also consider that any effects you might use, particularly reverb, change the distance that your hypothetical player is located. A bunch of verb will throw them off the back of the stage, so "season to taste", but remember what your choices will have on how anyone who listens will perceive your composition.

Your bass and vocal should be "center stage" Pan your mid-range instruments or harmony vocals to the sides. Unless you're shooting for something like The Beatles "Revolver" then keep your pans conservative. If it sounds unnatural you've gone too far.

EQ-wise, entire books are written just to address the basics. I find it clears things up to put a high pass filter on everything but the bass, YMMV!

There's just a whole bunch of things to consider when mixing, so the best thing you can do is practice. Play your mixes for others and be willing to accept constructive criticism. In the end it's only you that has to be pleased, though.

Last edited by Rudy4; 10-25-2020 at 07:03 PM.
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Old 10-25-2020, 08:11 PM
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Thank everyone! This is a lot of great information. I was considering recording in stereo, but I think I will instead just use single mono recordings for each.
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Old 10-26-2020, 09:20 AM
MikeBmusic MikeBmusic is offline
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Like Bob said, "It All Depends".

If my song starts with just the acoustic rhythm guitar (plus vocals), a 1-mic recording panned slightly to one side sounds unbalanced. So pan it in the center, along with a center vocal, and it can sound very "small". Two mics (however they are set up) allow me to pan them - 1 to the left, 1 to the right, usually around 20-30% and get a fuller sound. Then, when the other instruments come in, I can automate the pan over to one side (and I rarely hard pan a track).
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