2 Signal Path Questions - 1 Long, 1 short

[gfa]

We run all instruments and vocals into two LDC microphones, no pickups (except the cello, which plugs in). Mic1 is all of the vocals and some instruments. Mic 2 is almost exclusively instruments. Using a stereo mixer into a 2 band graphic EQ into a DBX GoRack into the speakers. Although the mixer and processors are all two channel, we are not running a stereo signal.

QUESTION 1: I've been panning Mic1 all the way left and Mic2 all the way right. I maintain those two independent signal paths all the way to the first speaker, where they are summed for a mono output. My thinking is that this allows me to separately EQ the mics, which each have their individual characterstics. Particularly, the resonant frequencies are a bit different on the two mics, so this setup allows me to EQ out troublesome frequencies on Mic1 without affecting those frequencies on Mic 2, and vice versa. This also allows me to EQ to tune the sound on the two mics separately (in theory. I don't know enough yet to do much tuning.). Is this the best approach, or is there a better way to connect this rig?

QUESTION 2: Which is better, mixer to EQ to GoRack or mixer to GoRack to EQ?

I'm having a blast learning about this stuff! Thanks to all for your assistance.

[gfa]

So, nobody wants to touch this?

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

[Neon Soul]

Most people here are talking about acoustic pickups, not mixing an entire band through 2 microphones.

If you're annoyed with the lack of responses, go over to the Gear Slutz forum and ask the question to qualified studio techs and sound men. They'll tell you what to do and not to do.

However, here is my take on your mixing so far.

IMO the hard left hard right panning will sound really bad. It is distracting to constantly ping pong back and forward between speakers.

Live, vocals should be down the middle, so don't pan that mic. If mic 2 has a channel with stereo panning capabilities, then pan left and right and leave the middle freed up for the vocals. If not, leave it in the middle, or if you have to pan to one side to make space, not too far as to seen one sided.

EQ wise, you're along the right lines, but I'm struggling to understand why you believe your hard panning makes any difference in the resonant frequencies? You should be more concerned with frequencies drowning out others, since you're insisting on running everyone through one mic.

Now, Q2. It entirely depends. I would usually EQ the channel before going to the mixer, whether that is with the onboard EQ on the mixer channels themselves or an outboard unit, but if you are using the graphic EQ to shape the whole sound, then after the mixer.

I would also EQ before using outboard effects, but if you're also using the EQ on the GoRack, then that muddies the waters.

The fact is, you've not told us enough about what your signal chain is, and what you're doing with it to give you good advise.

You haven't even told us why you have opted for this 2 mic setup, which is very awkward to do well without great expertise and musicians that are experienced with mic distance.

[GmanJeff]

I'm mostly w/Neon on this.

Amplifying instruments through mics is fraught with problems easily avoided with pickups.

What is the purpose of the GoRack in your rig? You're EQ-ing from your mixer, so presumably not using the GoRack's EQ features. You don't mention any monitors, if the GoRack is in your signal chain for the feedback suppression feature. Compression for some reason?

[gfa]

Gman - Using the "one mic" approach -we're doing a two mic version - has some limitations, but it also has some advantages. For me, the advantages outweigh the limitations. Since that's not at all the subject of my questions, I won't go into it here. Some info if you are interested: http://www.prosoundweb.com/channels/...reinforcement/

And in practice:


Since upgrading our system, the only function of the GoRack still in use is the AFS.

[GmanJeff]

There is no sonic advantage to your approach, only disadvantages. You may like "the look", but the sound is necessarily suffering in return. Keep in mind you're looking at a video of two experienced professionals using a single mic, aided by professional FOH and monitor engineers using top-end pro gear, including sophisticated EQ capabilities, in a fixed installation.

In trying to EQ two different mics, you'll be challenged because of your feeding of multiple sources into each one. If you EQ optimally for a single vocal, the other vocal may suffer, as may the instruments in that mic.

The same issue arises for the second mic and, on top of that, you'll have problems with volume - if you get optimized volume for one source, vocal or instrument, that may be too much or too little for everything else you're feeding into that input. That issue is magnified unless every signal source stays the same distance from each mic all the time. You have more opportunities to improve your sound if each voice and each instrument go to separate, individual channels on your mixer, and can be processed individually.

If you're using the GoRack as a feedback suppression system, you may not need that if you have no monitors and if you eliminated the condenser mics in favor of dynamic designs. That would simplify things, and give you one less potential point of failure. You'd no longer need to address your second question.

[lschwart]

Hi gfa:

I get what you're trying to accomplish here, but you're making things more complicated than they need to be. The best place for the extra separate EQ for each channel is in a channel insert. No need to pan the signals left and right abd then EQ them separately after the mixer only then to sum them to mono. If your mixer doesn't have channel inserts, you might consider exchanging it for one that does. Or even better, you might get one of the several relatively inexpensive digital mixers now available on the market. These will allow you to separately EQ each mic channel and to do so with parametric EQs that are likely to give you better results once you get used to using them.

Does that make sense to you?

Louis

[midwinter]

What's the rest of the signal chain? While MCK may play in front of an array of Ear Trumpet Labs mics (and I've heard them in an "ideal" listening room), on the back end there's a ton of compression and EQing, and even then, if the room is even the least bit noisy, they're going to be drowned out.

[Rudy4]

gfa,

Good for you for wanting to figure out a good sounding PA setup. As far as your actual question goes, since you're summing to mono then it's really 6 of one and a half dozen of the other. Only your ears in your particular situation can call it successful or not.

Telling you that there are better ways for you to do something doesn't really help you with however YOU want to work, but don't be discouraged at a few gruff responses.

The use of single or double LDC live sound performances has been in vogue for a while now, but do be aware that it's not as easy as it might seem. Since you're summing to mono be particularly aware of phase cancellation between the two mics. That alone could negate any gains you may or may not get from attempting to EQ utilizing separate signal paths.

[gfa]

@Louis - Yes, that makes sense. Down the road sometime I may upgrade, but for now we have a mixer without channel inserts. I've been disinclined towards the digital mixers because of their complexity. Managing sound while playing, seems like a quick knob twiddle is faster and easier than going menu diving. That said, I've never used one.

@midwinter - Yamaha 10MGXU mixer => DBX231s EQ => DBX GoRack => EV ELX112P (2). It's not a great setup to use in a really noisy environment, for certain. But, that's not where we're mostly playing. I've heard MKC on a single mic in a good theater and the sound was superb! I don't harbor any illusions that we're operating in the same ballpark/universe as them.

@Rudy - Thanks for the tip on phase cancellation. I will study up and be on the lookout! The gruff responses aren't discouraging. More so puzzling. I recently saw Gregory Alan Isakov (great show). The band played with a conventional close mic & monitors setup for most of the show, but in the middle and again towards the end they brought out an LDC and gathered round. Sounded great, it was fun to watch, they seemed to be enjoying it, and the audience loved it.

Thanks, all.

[midwinter]

Originally Posted by gfa

@midwinter - Yamaha 10MGXU mixer => DBX231s EQ => DBX GoRack => EV ELX112P (2). It's not a great setup to use in a really noisy environment, for certain. But, that's not where we're mostly playing. I've heard MKC on a single mic in a good theater and the sound was superb! I don't harbor any illusions that we're operating in the same ballpark/universe as them.

At the very least, I'd suggest getting a real compressor. (I've got a GoRack and hated it.)