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Old 04-11-2013, 04:20 PM
Mellow_D Mellow_D is offline
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Default "G7 Aug 5th," "G7 Flat 5th," "G9 Aug 5th," and "G9 Flat 5th"

I learned a long time ago that just strumming a newly learned chord over and over again, in isolation, is not the best way to learn that particular chord, that "muscle memory" is enhanced when you have to switch between the newly learned chord and another chord, and then back to the newly learned chord.

So for example, when I learned an E Minor Chord (and the various shapes of the E Minor Chord) I didn't just strum it over and over for 60 minutes. My teacher gave me a basic chord progression or a part of a song that included the E minor chord, so that I was switching between it and other chords. So for example, when learning the E Minor Chord, he would give me the following popular chord progression to play: G-Em-C-D. Or the opening chord progression of My Sweet Lord, playing an Em-A progression.

Well, I'm just learning the following four chords:

G7 Aug 5th
G7 Flat 5th
G9 Aug 5th
G9 Flat 5th.

But just strumming these "new to me" chords over and over is, again, not the best approach to developing that muscle memory. The problem is, I need to use them in some chord progressions or song parts (like the examples I gave above when I had learned the E Minor chord years ago).

Can anyone provide me with some basic chord progressions for each of the four chords so I can practice switching between these new chords and other chords, so I can "enhance the muscle memory" ... in other words, learn to play the chords well? (Or point me to a book with songs that use these four chords I've listed above?)

Thank you
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:58 PM
ombudsman ombudsman is offline
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If you're going to really deal with jazz chords I would suggest thinking of them as collections of intervals rather than memorizing and practicing specific voicings in one fingering. It helps you store the knowledge in a way that is flexible and portable to all keys. In jazz you often need to adjust voicings on the fly so that the bass line or top note can fit into a melodic line, bass line, or a held note.

Since those are all 7th chord types, the most obvious way to use them in a progression is to make them the V chord. I did that for some of these examples.

These aren't from classic songs or anything, but they seem like pretty standard usage of the chords.

G7#5:

D7#9|G7#5|Cm7
or
Ab7|G7#5|Cm7


G7b5:

G7b5|C7|Fm
or
DbM7|Bbm7|G7b5|AbM7

G9#5 and G9b5:I have not found 9th chords with altered 5ths to be that common or fascinating, so maybe someone else has a better idea.

I could see going from G9#5 to a Cm7 so that the top note in the first chord is an A going down to a G (5th) in the Cm7. It could use the Ab in passing.

G9b5:
Cm add 9 (9th on top)|G9b5|Bbm7|A7|AbM7
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Old 04-12-2013, 05:10 AM
Mellow_D Mellow_D is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ombudsman View Post
If you're going to really deal with jazz chords I would suggest thinking of them as collections of intervals rather than memorizing and practicing specific voicings in one fingering. It helps you store the knowledge in a way that is flexible and portable to all keys. In jazz you often need to adjust voicings on the fly so that the bass line or top note can fit into a melodic line, bass line, or a held note.
Oh, so these aren't chords you would find in pop or rock songs? I thought there were some common chord progressions that use them, progressions that I just wasn't aware of and needed to learn. As I said, way back, when I learned the shapes/fingerings of the E Minor chord, it was like, ok, well E Minor is often in pop progressions like G - Em - C - D or songs like My Sweet Lord, Em - A. But with these four "kinds" of G chords, there are no popular or common chord progressions that use these them. (I had assumed there were and thought such progressions -- in requiring me to switch back and forth between these newly learned chords -- would help me develop that "muscle memory" and learn how to play them more "smoothly", not having to stop and think, "where do my fingers go with each chord.")



Quote:
Originally Posted by ombudsman View Post
Since those are all 7th chord types, the most obvious way to use them in a progression is to make them the V chord. I did that for some of these examples.
So if it's the V chord -- and tell me if I got it wrong -- these G7 and G9 "forms" are chords in/of the key Of C and the examples you gave me to practice are in the key of C?



END OF PART I reply

Last edited by Mellow_D; 04-12-2013 at 05:26 AM.
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Old 04-12-2013, 05:19 AM
Mellow_D Mellow_D is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ombudsman View Post
These aren't from classic songs or anything, but they seem like pretty standard usage of the chords.

G7#5:

D7#9|G7#5|Cm7
or
Ab7|G7#5|Cm7


G7b5:

G7b5|C7|Fm
or
DbM7|Bbm7|G7b5|AbM7

G9#5 and G9b5:I have not found 9th chords with altered 5ths to be that common or fascinating, so maybe someone else has a better idea.

I could see going from G9#5 to a Cm7 so that the top note in the first chord is an A going down to a G (5th) in the Cm7. It could use the Ab in passing.

G9b5:
Cm add 9 (9th on top)|G9b5|Bbm7|A7|AbM7

First, thank you for the examples, suggestions to practice. But I'm a little confused. So, just to use the first example you gave:

D7#9|G7#5|Cm7
or
Ab7|G7#5|Cm7


Am I to strum the D7#9 four times, then G7#5 four times, then Cm7 four times -- much in the way I would strum G four times, E Minor four times, C four times, and D four times in the G - Em - C - D progression I had learned years ago?

As in three bars:

D7#9
/ / / /

G7#5
/ / / /

Cm7
/ / / /


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Old 04-12-2013, 08:02 AM
ombudsman ombudsman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellow_D View Post
Oh, so these aren't chords you would find in pop or rock songs? I thought there were some common chord progressions that use them, progressions that I just wasn't aware of and needed to learn.
You wouldn't find them very often in most recent pop music. If you go back to earlier pop music they would turn up here and there, it depends what music in particular you mean. American pop music used to be more jazz influenced (and jazz, influenced by show tunes and such from the era when they could be relatively complex). It was still common up through the 70s to hear pop music with a wide pallette of chord types before going more plain vanilla after that, for the most part. (Not that people don't use them at all now.)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellow_D View Post
So if it's the V chord -- and tell me if I got it wrong -- these G7 and G9 "forms" are chords in/of the key Of C and the examples you gave me to practice are in the key of C?
Songs don't always stay in the same key for the duration of the tune, but to the extent that those were V chords (the first two examples) then yes they resolve to C (minor) which is evident because that's the chord they end on.
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Old 04-12-2013, 08:06 AM
ombudsman ombudsman is offline
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Originally Posted by Mellow_D View Post
Am I to strum the D7#9 four times, then G7#5 four times, then Cm7 four times -- much in the way I would strum G four times, E Minor four times, C four times, and D four times in the G - Em - C - D progression I had learned years ago?
They're just series of chords to give you some context as to how they can be used, but yes it would be reasonable to start with treating the pipe characters as bar lines and use a 4/4 beat and a common strumming pattern and play quarter notes. You could use another time signature or just strum them in free time one after the other to hear how the chords relate. Sometimes I do that for a while, I'll just let them ring and see if that gives me an idea of what might come next.
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Old 04-12-2013, 08:39 AM
Mellow_D Mellow_D is offline
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Is a D7#9 mean the same thing as D Augmented 9th?

I just noticed that in my chord book the chord "groupings" are listed as:

D Seventh b9
D Augmented 9th

To be consistent, shouldn't it be written as:

D Seventh b9
D Seventh #9

In other words, if you're saying flat 9 for one, shouldn't you say sharp 9 for the other (as opposed to augmented 9)? Or if you're going to say augmented 9 for one, then for the flat 9, say diminished 9 instead? (Just to keep the "manner of describing" consistent, even though they mean the same thing?)

That is, when giving these dominant 7th chords their names regarding the kind of altered "9", either say "this is a flat 9 and this is a sharp 9," or "this is a diminished 9 and this is an augmented 9"?



Last edited by Mellow_D; 04-12-2013 at 08:57 AM.
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Old 04-12-2013, 08:57 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellow_D View Post
Oh, so these aren't chords you would find in pop or rock songs?
Not commonly, no.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellow_D View Post
thought there were some common chord progressions that use them, progressions that I just wasn't aware of and needed to learn.
IMO, you don't "need" to learn any progressions you're "not aware of".
IOW, when you become aware of a progression you haven't heard before - ie you hear something in a song you haven't heard before, or that sounds unusual - that's the time to find out what it is and learn it.

Anyway, it's a fair question where these chords might be found.
They are types of "altered dominant" and, as ombudsman says, it's jazz tunes where you'd most likely find them, used as V chords in (in this case) the keys of C major or C minor.
I wouldn't, however, follow his suggestion of also preceding them a 7#9 - that's an unnecessary complication, IMO.

The simplest application - to help understand why they would be used - is following a plain G7 or G9; no more than 2 beats per chord:

|G7 - G7#5 - |C (maj) - - - |
|G7 - G7b5 - |C (maj) - - - |
|G9 - G9#5 - |C (maj) - - - |
|G9 - G9b5 - |C (maj) - - - |

In the case of the #5 (D#), follow how it leads from the D on G7 up to the E on the C chord.
In the case of the b5 (D#), follow how it leads from the D on G7 down to the C on the C chord.

IOW, you're looking purely at the alteration (#5 or b5) and effect it has between the unaltered chord and its target (the tonic C).

Also try the above with Cm chords at the end, but notice that the #5 is the same note as the 3rd of Cm.
Also try different kinds of extended tonic, such as Cmaj7, C6 or Cadd9, see how they sound.

Then try putting Dm7 or D7 in front. Dm7 is the natural ii chord in key of C, so that's first choice:

|Dm7 - G7#5 - |C (maj) - - - |
|Dm7 - G7b5 - |C (maj) - - - |
|Dm7 - G9#5 - |C (maj) - - - |
|Dm7 - G9b5 - |C (maj) - - - |

To go to Cm, the usual choice would be Dm7b5, or Fm. (Dm7b5 is Fm/D.)

|Dm7b5 - G7#5 - |Cm - - - |
|Dm7b5 - G7b5 - |Cm - - - |
|Dm7b5 - G9#5 - |Cm - - - |
|Dm7b5 - G9b5 - |Cm - - - |

As I said, you won't find such changes in pop and rock songs - with very rare and notable exceptions.
The nearest you'll get is augmented triad chords (#5 without the 7), which the Beatles quite liked; eg, in "Ask Me Why":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xublw_JrxtA
Listen for 0:48 and 0:55. That's an Eaug (E+) chord, making a transition between E (tonic chord) and A (IV).

There's also this famous aug chord:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_enBoNg6pQQ
That intro is Daug, resolving into the G tonic.

That's the simplest way that chords with #5s are used. (Adding a 7th in each of these cases would make the tension stronger, but I guess both Lennon and Berry considered the triad was juicy enough for their purposes . And while Lennon used it for its useful subtle passing alteration, Chuck might just have thought it had a suitable car-horn like sound .)

Another occurrence of an augmented chord in rock - although it has a maj7, not a b7 - is the second chord in the Stairway to Heaven intro:

-7- B = maj7
-5- E = 3
-5- C = root
-6- G# = #5

In this case it's a passing chord combining the descending bass line (A in chord before, G after), with the B melody note, the other two (C-E) coming from the basic A minor key of the sequence.

-5----7----8-
-5----5----5-
-5----5----5-
-7----6----5-

Lastly, here's a famous (and AFAIK unique) application of a 9#5 chord in a pop song, which exploits the only scale which really fits it: the wholetone scale:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWst-r26whI
At 0:06 the chord is G9#5, and the rising lick uses the G wholetone scale: G A B C# D# F.
Functionally, the chord is still the altered V7 in key of C.
It's highly unusual for the chord to last 2 whole bars as it does here, but that's probably so Stevie can show off his wholetone scale line - which I think was inspired by this tune:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soJvqZHSHxk
- which begins with a wholetone chord and very similar piano riffs.


In short - even in jazz - those wholetone examples aside - ALWAYS assume that an altered 5th is a chromatic passing note on its way from somewhere to somewhere else (usually half-steps either side). It would hardly ever last more than 2 beats, sometimes only 1. (Occasionally you might see such a chord lasting a whole bar - eg there's a 7#5 for a whole bar in the standard "Stella By Starlight".)

Otherwise, fully altered dominants - with b9 or #9 along with b5 or #5 - are more common than ones with no 9th or an unaltered 9th.
Eg, the V7 chord in key of C minor might be any of the following:
G7#5#9, G7b5b9, G7b5#9, G7#5b9.

A useful thing about 7b5 chords -which you may have noticed - is they start to resemble another 7b5. Eg:

G7b5:
-x-
-2- = Db = b5
-4- = B = 3
-3- = F = b7
-4- = Db = b5
-3- = G = root

or is it Db7b5?:
-x-
-2- = Db = root
-4- = Cb = b7
-3- = F = 3
-4- = Db = root
-3- = G = b5

In both cases, the chord resolves nicely to C. But it will also resolve to Gb(F#):

-x----2-
-2----2-
-4----3-
-3----4-
-4----4-
-3----2-

This is the basis of the "tritone substitute"; common in jazz, but also in blues. The theory is that you can replace any V7 chord with a bII7 chord (and you don't actually need the b5 in either case).
So Db7 will resolve to C just as well (and maybe in a cooler, bluesier way) than plain old G7 does.
And of course if you precede it with Dm7, you have a chromatic descending bass:

Dm7 Db7 C
-5---4---3------
-6---6---5------
-5---4---5------
-7---6---5------
-5---4---3------
----------------

Check all those half-step moves!
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Last edited by JonPR; 04-12-2013 at 09:13 AM.
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Old 04-12-2013, 09:12 AM
ombudsman ombudsman is offline
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Originally Posted by Mellow_D View Post
Is a D7#9 mean the same thing as D Augmented 9th?

I just noticed that in my chord book the chord "groupings" are listed as:

D Seventh b9
D Augmented 9th

To be consistent, shouldn't it be written as:

D Seventh b9
D Seventh #9

D augmented 9th would mean something different than D seventh #9.

D augmented refers to a triad with a major 3rd and a #5. It implies no seventh interval and so any other alterations of the 9th are "adds".

D seventh with a raised or lowered 9th interval would be D7#9 or D7-9. Really, you're talking about D9 chords with altered 9ths, but it would be more confusing to say it's a 9th chord and that the 9th is altered at the same time, so we call those 7ths and then specify the alterations, because with the 9th being the next extension anyway there is no reason not to do that.

But another important lesson here is that books, teachers, and charts don't all use consistent names for chords and you have to be flexible and go with "local rules" to be practical, if you're dealing with this type of material.
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Old 04-12-2013, 09:27 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellow_D View Post
Is a D7#9 mean the same thing as D Augmented 9th?

I just noticed that in my chord book the chord "groupings" are listed as:

D Seventh b9
D Augmented 9th

To be consistent, shouldn't it be written as:

D Seventh b9
D Seventh #9

In other words, if you're saying flat 9 for one, shouldn't you say sharp 9 for the other (as opposed to augmented 9)? Or if you're going to say augmented 9 for one, then for the flat 9, say diminished 9 instead? (Just to keep the "manner of describing" consistent, even though they mean the same thing?)

That is, when giving these dominant 7th chords their names regarding the kind of altered "9", either say "this is a flat 9 and this is a sharp 9," or "this is a diminished 9 and this is an augmented 9"?


Technically a b9 interval is a "minor 9th" and a #9 is an "augmented 9th".
D-E = major 9th (compound major 2nd)
D-Eb = minor 9th (compound minor 2nd)
D-E# = augmented 9th (compound minor 2nd)

So a 7#9 chord does have an "augmented 9th" extension (alteration).

However, as ombudsman says, the word "augmented" is commonly used to refer to the raised 5th, so wouldn't be used (at least not by jazz musicians!) to refer to the 9th of a chord.
"D7#9" would be called simply "D seven sharp 9".

Likewise, because "minor" is commonly reserved for the 3rd of a chord, neither a b7 nor b9 would be referred to as "minor" (even though that's their correct names).
So "D7b9" is called "D seven flat 9".

After all, if we were going to be thoroughly pedantic and spell all the chord intervals, we call them:
D major 3rd perfect 5th minor 7th major 9th (D9)
D major 3rd perfect 5th minor 7th augmented 9th (D7#9)
D major 3rd perfect 5th minor 7th minor 9th (D7b9)
- but of course we don't! (Life is too short...)
We take major 3rd and perfect 5th as read, and we assume a "minor" 7th (b7) as standard. We also assume any added extension is either major (6, 9, 13) or perfect (11).
It's only when those intervals are changed that we refer to their quality:
D minor 3rd perfect 5th minor 7th = "Dm7" (F# lowered to F)
D major 3rd perfect 5th major 7th = "Dmaj7" (C raised to C#)
D minor 3rd perfect 5th major 7th = "Dm(maj7)" (F# lowered to F and C raised to C#)
D major 3rd augmented 5th major 7th = "Dmaj7#5" or "Dmaj7+" (A raised to A#, C raised to C#)
D major 3rd, augmented 5th, minor 7th, augmented 9th = D7#9#5 (A raised to A#, E raised to E#)
etc.
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:12 AM
Mellow_D Mellow_D is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
Technically a b9 interval is a "minor 9th" and a #9 is an "augmented 9th".
D-E = major 9th (compound major 2nd)
D-Eb = minor 9th (compound minor 2nd)
D-E# = augmented 9th (compound minor 2nd)

So a 7#9 chord does have an "augmented 9th" extension (alteration).

However, as ombudsman says, the word "augmented" is commonly used to refer to the raised 5th, so wouldn't be used (at least not by jazz musicians!) to refer to the 9th of a chord.
"D7#9" would be called simply "D seven sharp 9".
OK, before I get thoroughly confused, I'll just put it as simple as my chord book has it:

D Seventh b9:

Eb
C
A
F#
D

D Augmented 9th:

E#
C
A
F#
D

So the first four notes that comprise the Dominant 7th chord are the same, with only the last note -- the ninth, the E -- being altered. In one case it's flatted, in the second case it's sharped. E flat in one, E sharp the other.

So I'm confused if you can call the one a Dominant 7 flat 9, why not the other a Dominant 7 sharp 9?

(I mean, in the CHORD DICTIONARY BOOK, they're talking about the chord names based on the notes here, not the intervals, so maybe that's why it's confusing.)

?

EDIT: I just looked at a website and I see a D7#9 chord listed and it's also called the 7th augmented 9th chord:





http://www.chordmine.com/guitar-chor.../chord_35.aspx

From the above link:

The 7th augmented 9th chord

Description:
7+9 is a 7th chord with a raised or sharpened 9th, hence the +9 or #9. They are often used as Chord V in either a major or minor key and are commonly found in Jazz progressions.



Last edited by Mellow_D; 04-12-2013 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 04-12-2013, 12:03 PM
Mellow_D Mellow_D is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ombudsman View Post
D augmented 9th would mean something different than D seventh #9.

D augmented refers to a triad with a major 3rd and a #5. It implies no seventh interval and so any other alterations of the 9th are "adds".

D seventh with a raised or lowered 9th interval would be D7#9 or D7-9.
OK, then maybe it's the way the chord dictionary is labeling (as you said, "books, teachers, and charts don't all use consistent names for chords") . Because this chord dictionary lists the ...

D Augmented 9th as having the following notes: D - F# - A - C - E#

That "A" note is NOT augmented. (It's not a #5). This is a Dominant 7th chord with a sharped 9th only.

(And yet even though it's LISTED as "D Augmented 9th," on the side it says Symbol: D7#9).

Last edited by Mellow_D; 04-12-2013 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 04-12-2013, 12:39 PM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellow_D View Post
OK, before I get thoroughly confused, I'll just put it as simple as my chord book has it:

D Seventh b9:

Eb
C
A
F#
D

D Augmented 9th:

E#
C
A
F#
D

So the first four notes that comprise the Dominant 7th chord are the same, with only the last note -- the ninth, the E -- being altered. In one case it's flatted, in the second case it's sharped. E flat in one, E sharp the other.

So I'm confused if you can call the one a Dominant 7 flat 9, why not the other a Dominant 7 sharp 9?
You can.
The book's use of augmented to refer to the 9th is technically correct, but potentially confusing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellow_D View Post
EDIT: I just looked at a website and I see a D7#9 chord listed and it's also called the 7th augmented 9th chord:




http://www.chordmine.com/guitar-chor.../chord_35.aspx

From the above link:

The 7th augmented 9th chord

Description:
7+9 is a 7th chord with a raised or sharpened 9th, hence the +9 or #9. They are often used as Chord V in either a major or minor key and are commonly found in Jazz progressions.
Again, that's technically correct.
As I said before, a raised 9th is an "augmented 9th" - because when we enlarge a major interval by a half-step it's "augmented" (just as when we raise a perfect interval).
A normal 9th (D-E) is major, so D-E# is augmented.

However - and this is the point ombudsman is making - in normal parlance when talking about chords, the word "augmented" is reserved for the 5th only.

So the name "7th augmented 9th chord" is ambiguous, because we'd want to know "hold on, do they mean the 5th is augmented? or just the 9th?"

Ie, we'd use the term "7th augmented" (symbol "7+") to mean a 7th chord with a raised 5th. ("Augmented" signifying an augmented triad, named after its raised 5th.)
So it looks as if "7th augmented 9th" might be a 7#5 chord with a (normal) 9th added! But clearly isn't it. It's a 7 chord with a #9 added!
So the website - while not actually wrong - is using unorthodox terminology. (Terminology which is academically correct, but not in common use.)

An additional source of potentuial confusion (tho a more common one) is the use of the symbol "+" to mean "#" (referring to a following extension number). It's common in handwritten jazz charts but should (IMO) be avoided, and reserved (like the word "augmented") to refer to the raised 5th only.

Compare the following shorthand symbols:

"C+" = Caug (C E G#)
"C7+" = C7#5 (C E G# Bb)
"C9+" = C9#5 (C E G# Bb D)

You can see the potential confusion if (like that website) we then use:
"C7+9" (or worse, as I've sometimes seen, "C+9") - it's not clear if the "+" is referring to a hidden #5 (as it does on the end of a symbol), or the following "9".

IMO there's no excuse for not using "C7#9" for that chord - because "#" (if after a "7") always refers to the following number, there's no confusion. And how hard is it to write or type "#" instead of "+"? :rolleyes

And even the "+" for "#5" seems a risky abbreviation. If we want a #5, then why not just write "#5" to be as clear as possible?

The equivalent is when "-" is used for both "m" (minor) and "b"!
Eg:
"C-7-5" = Cm7b5
"C-9" = Cm9
but then:
"C7-5" = C7b5
"C7-9" = C7b9
Who needs it? Let's just have:
Cm7b5
Cm9
C7b5
C7b9
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  #14  
Old 04-12-2013, 12:42 PM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by Mellow_D View Post
OK, then maybe it's the way the chord dictionary is labeling (as you said, "books, teachers, and charts don't all use consistent names for chords") . Because this chord dictionary lists the ...

D Augmented 9th as having the following notes: D - F# - A - C - E#

That "A" note is NOT augmented. (It's not a #5). This is a Dominant 7th chord with a sharped 9th only.

(And yet even though it's LISTED as "D Augmented 9th," on the side it says Symbol: D7#9).
Yes - check my above post.
A #9 interval is an "augmented 9th" (strictly speaking); but that word should not be used in a chord name, because in chord names "augmented" is generally understood to mean a #5.
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Old 04-12-2013, 12:56 PM
Mellow_D Mellow_D is offline
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Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
Yes - check my above post.
A #9 interval is an "augmented 9th" (strictly speaking); but that word should not be used in a chord name, because in chord names "augmented" is generally understood to mean a #5.
I got it, thanks!

It's amazing how this failure by all these books and teachers to share a common set or method of LABELING can so confuse things.

Just to show you, I scanned the page from my chord dictionary and you can see how on the left side of the page it's calling it a "D Augmented 9th", yet the 5th isn't sharpened, just the 9th. And yet on the other side of the page, under the word symbol, it does list it as D7#9:






If this were REALLY a D Augmented 9, the 5th would have been an A# ... right? (Because augmented chords are 1 -3 -#5)
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