If Taylor's V-bracing is all that and a bag of chips

[LakewoodM32Fan]

Originally Posted by Mark Stone

Or keep the elixirs and switch to Mediums - This darkens the tone substantially.

Unfortunately as I age, not a realistic option for me as I'm looking to stay in the "light" gauge range (and even experimenting with lower tension options). My only exception to this is my dread, but I mainly live in the open-chord range when I play the dread, without any significant bending so I can stay in the M range for that guitar. But if I can find a light set that still preserves it's volume and bass, I'd definitely change there too.

[Taylor Ham]

Short answer to why other companies haven't copied V bracing, it's patented. Ibanez tried to emulate the design somewhat with their "X-M" bracing, look it up.

Since we're rehashing this (again) I'll say it louder - I consider many motives more likely than cost saving.

I really believe it's fair to be turned off by the hype, and disappointed in the discontinuation of a design which some people strongly prefer, but I would also say not everyone's preference is the universal truth.

Let's break it down further- why V bracing does not save significant money compared to X bracing.
X bracing has:
-UTB
-NT patch
-2 X arms, notched
-4 finger braces
-2 tone bars
-Bridge plate (2 layers)
for a total of 12 bracing components.

V bracing has
-UTB
-NT patch
-2 V arms, also notched for bridge plate
-Central transverse brace notched for v arms
-bridge plate, also 2 layers
-4 finger braces
for a total of 11 bracing components.

Both of these top systems need to be sourced, shipped and handled, seasoned, split, thicknessed, joined, soundhole cut, body profile cut out, relief routed, bracing applied, and attached to a body.

The rest of the process of the entire guitar hasnt changed. The way taylor uses a vacuum press to simulatenously glue all bracing components makes applying any bracing really fast, so the only time and material you're saving with V bracing basically worth one tone bar. (subtract two tone bars and add a transverse brace.)

It's not any faster since the glued tops still cure in the press for the same time and for hours before marrying a body. The instrument has to have a neck made, be bound, stained, finished, and set up before being considered done.

So is it worth it to spend huge amounts of time and know how and money to develop a new system, thoroughly test it, and make changes to the mfg line, train employees, to save one tone bar worth of spruce per guitar, when so many other costs are involved in producing the entire guitar, not to mention run a huge factory? I don't think the El cajon factory is cutting it that close, is it?

Furthermore, the academy series, plus the 100's 200's and Gs mini cut it way closer in terms of margins. The tecate factory is better set up to handle changes to production. So if v bracing is effective in saving costs and reducing warranty claims, it would be priority for those guitars.

For these reasons, I find it hard to believe cost cutting played a role in the switch to V bracing.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Mark Stone

I think it is a very informative discussion. Every subject of interest has been repeated over and over and over at the AGF.

It could be very interesting if focused on the actual possible affect of V bracing on guitar tone (or not) , and or personal preferences there of.

[flaggerphil]

I have two v-braced guitars and some without. To me it's not either or.

[Kitkatjoe]

Originally Posted by Social Exodus

Then you would think the crowded field of acoustic guitar makers would follow suit wouldn't you?

I'm not for it or against it, although full disclosure all my guitars are X-braced and I have all I need. It is just fairly standard that when company A has a big breakthrough, then companies B,C..Z follow along eventually.

Martin had the x bracing and they have been followed.

[llew]

Isn't Taylor supposed to unleash some sort of earth shattering new design guitar tomorrow? Maybe Andy will introduce a "W", "Y", or "Z" braced model?

[FOG01]

Agreed. Considering the amount of wood, aside from the number of pieces, I would imagine the difference is negligible. I think Taylor does think it's a bag of chips and all that. Depending on the particular guitar and/or performer, I'd likely agree.

[Quakeroatmeal]

Now we have a whole new "sonic engine" with the magical C- class bracing!

Guitars are now like cell phones, rendered obsolete with each new model release.

No thank you.

[KevWind]

I think it is great that Taylor decided to look at a smaller solid bodied guitar between the concert and the mini.

And the fact that they chose to consider perhaps a different bracing design than X or V ,,, that might better suit this particular new size, is to their credit.

And fortunately well made guitars never become obsolete ,( I still play only X) BUT fortunately that fact !!!! need not constrict development

[Willie_D]

Originally Posted by KevWind

I think it is great that Taylor decided to look at a smaller solid bodied guitar between the concert and the mini.

And the fact that they chose to consider perhaps a different bracing design than X or V ,,, that might better suit this particular new size, is to their credit.

And fortunately well made guitars never become obsolete ,( I still play only X) BUT fortunately that fact !!!! need not constrict development

Me, too....

[LakewoodM32Fan]

Originally Posted by Willie_D

Me, too....

Which is (as a relatively new member who joined in late Spring/early Summer this year) surprising to me, given how I've seen members go out of their way not to down-talk just about every other brand. Acknowledging that a Bourgeois isn't better than a Collings, which isn't better than a Santa Cruz, which isn't better than a Huss and Dalton...they all are different and tastes are highly personal.

Which was actually a little bit refreshing to me, and has helped me judge guitars on their own merits and how they sound to me, versus trying to compare them in a winner-take-all battle with others (hence why my guitarsenal has grown with quite a few different names on the headstocks).

But apparently, Taylor...or maybe more specifically Andy Powers and his bracing inventions...are the exception to this rule of no down-talk.

[zmf]

Originally Posted by LakewoodM32Fan

But apparently, Taylor...or maybe more specifically Andy Powers and his bracing inventions...are the exception to this rule of no down-talk.

This might be too sweeping a generalization -- the other big companies do catch flak occasionally -- but I agree with you.

Why? I feel that Taylor, and Powers in particular, are smugly talking down to me, assuming I'll buy into whatever their latest major "innovation" is. Other major guitar companies are not as aggressive in their sales pitch -- though I'm sure others see less difference in how the big companies pitch their products.

[LakewoodM32Fan]

Originally Posted by zmf

This might be too sweeping a generalization -- the other big companies do catch flak occasionally -- but I agree with you.

Why? I feel that Taylor, and Powers in particular, are smugly talking down to me, assuming I'll buy into whatever their latest major "innovation" is. Other major guitar companies are not as aggressive in their sales pitch -- though I'm sure others see less difference in how the big companies pitch their products.

Admittedly I've only been here a short while and obviously don't read every thread, so maybe the other brands do get down-talked (although the couple of times I've seen flame wars almost start, admins come in moderate). It just seems that Powers and his bracing seem to have had the lion's share of down-talk recently (including 3 concurrent threads right now on page 1).

So I get that Taylor's advertising is overwhelming, and yes Andy can come off as "mansplaining" as the kids would say. But are we (AGF members, or even guitar aficionados in general) the target for it? I'd say no, because most here already love their Bourgeois, SCGC, Collings, H&D, Olson, Wingert, [insert individual luthier name here], etc. I don't think Andy and Taylor are trying to win those folks back because quite honestly, they know they can't/won't. They're advertising to the folks who have some money to buy a nice instrument, but aren't on the journey where they're ready to go with those brands for a multitude of legitimate reasons.

[Quakeroatmeal]

Originally Posted by LakewoodM32Fan

Admittedly I've only been here a short while and obviously don't read every thread, so maybe the other brands do get down-talked (although the couple of times I've seen flame wars almost start, admins come in moderate). It just seems that Powers and his bracing seem to have had the lion's share of down-talk recently (including 3 concurrent threads right now on page 1).

So I get that Taylor's advertising is overwhelming, and yes Andy can come off as "mansplaining" as the kids would say. But are we (AGF members, or even guitar aficionados in general) the target for it? I'd say no, because most here already love their Bourgeois, SCGC, Collings, H&D, Olson, Wingert, [insert individual luthier name here], etc. I don't think Andy and Taylor are trying to win those folks back because quite honestly, they know they can't/won't. They're advertising to the folks who have some money to buy a nice instrument, but aren't on the journey where they're ready to go with those brands for a multitude of legitimate reasons.

I think Taylors stuff is cool.

But I think Andy just comes off as very pretentious.

Going from singing the praises of V bracing, to now offering a new wonderous C bracing, makes me think they want guitars to be like mobile phones, obsolete and replacement on a yearly cycle.

[zmf]

Originally Posted by LakewoodM32Fan

But are we (AGF members, or even guitar aficionados in general) the target for it? I'd say no, because most here already love their Bourgeois, SCGC, Collings, H&D, Olson, Wingert, [insert individual luthier name here], etc.

That's a valid point, and I thought about adding it to my response. The answer is both yes and no.

Many on the forum are fans of Taylors, and a subset do search for the mystical highly sustained, well-intonated, blooming of notes way down (up?) the neck of V-braced models. So it does get talked about. In the end, Taylors sound like Taylors.

Personally, I'm still looking for a travel guitar, and the mini is on my list -- I happen to think it's a great guitar in its niche. Taylor's propaganda intrudes on my shopping pleasure.

Think I need someone to give me a slap and say "Dude -- lighten up".