Zoom portable recorders and setting levels

[redpoint]

Hi there, I was watching this video from Josh Turner on how to get the most out of a portable recorder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4NZoqZA4zM&t=2m

In the video, he adjusts his Zoom H2 and the caption says "Checking my meters to see that both mic capsules are roughly getting the same amount of signal; adjust angle as needed so meters are jumping roughly to the same spot"

On something like the H2 or H2n, that seems pretty easy to do, because the display is facing you. But on something like the H5 or H6, the meters are actually facing away from you in most cases.

So how do you set levels in the H5 or H6 easily?

Thanks!

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by redpoint

Hi there, I was watching this video from Josh Turner on how to get the most out of a portable recorder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4NZoqZA4zM&t=2m

In the video, he adjusts his Zoom H2 and the caption says "Checking my meters to see that both mic capsules are roughly getting the same amount of signal; adjust angle as needed so meters are jumping roughly to the same spot"

On something like the H2 or H2n, that seems pretty easy to do, because the display is facing you. But on something like the H5 or H6, the meters are actually facing away from you in most cases.

So how do you set levels in the H5 or H6 easily?

Thanks!

Hi rp

Zooms are great recorders. I use them for recording remote audio for videos.

A couple suggestions…

Employ Help…
If recording yourself, have someone else set the meters so they peak between -12 & -6. This would apply whether you use built in mics or external ones. If you use remote mics, then place the recorder where you can monitor it.

Get to know your gear inside and out…
I know my equipment after using it a ton, and I alway attempt to place mics the same distance from me (if I'm recording myself playing) and set the input levels the same. I even make notes on my iPhone to remind myself. I know every control so I can call things up instantly and not interrupt the creative flow.

Experiment, and compare results…
I load tests into recording software which displays the wave forms and measure where they are peaking. I often talk to myself (the recorder) during tests noting changes in settings and effects so I keep things straight when listening/comparing.

If in doubt, I record volumes conservatively…
If I am close, but a little bit quiet on input levels, I can turn levels up in post without increasing the noise noticeably. If I overdrive, I cannot do anything but record again. Experiment with the Auto-Limit (not to be confused with Auto-LEVEL) if you are prone to outbursts.

Don't use Auto-level…EVER!
It over-compresses, and increases a lot of noise in recordings.

Hope this helps…

[redpoint]

Thanks for your detailed answer, that's very kind of you. I appreciate it!

Getting help: Unfortunately I'm usually doing this on my own (I wanted to record myself and upload a video to youtube) so unfortunately there's no one else to check the levels.

Knowing your gear: Makes sense -- I've been using Garageband and some basic gear I bought a few years ago, but I realized after watching those videos that I wasn't really paying much attention to the levels.

I was inspired to see how much Josh can do on youtube with just a single H2 (something like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cagNn1bmF8). I also like the idea of being able to record on the go without taking my laptop, microphone, and audio interface with me.

It looks like the H2n is the successor to the H2 so I was thinking about picking it up to focus on improving my playing and performance instead of worrying quite as much about getting the right type of mic / interface.

[Andy Howell]

You need to do two basic tests - both easy with a mobile recorder.

Firstly, audition the space in which you record for reverberation.

Secondly, experiment with modest gain levels. Record once, raise level and record again, etc. Compare them in your DAW for clipping.

The other advice above is spot on.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by redpoint

Hi there, I was watching this video from Josh Turner on how to get the most out of a portable recorder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4NZoqZA4zM&t=2m

In the video, he adjusts his Zoom H2 and the caption says "Checking my meters to see that both mic capsules are roughly getting the same amount of signal; adjust angle as needed so meters are jumping roughly to the same spot"

On something like the H2 or H2n, that seems pretty easy to do, because the display is facing you. But on something like the H5 or H6, the meters are actually facing away from you in most cases.

So how do you set levels in the H5 or H6 easily?

Thanks!

I don't use a H5 or H6, but perhaps you can make up a homebrew mount similar to what I use so I can see the rear screen on my point-n'-shoot camera for doing simple videos. This works out really well for using a device that has a rear-facing screen and you could watch the screen to set input levels before you hit record.

don't laugh... it works! The mirror stand allowed me to frame the shot so I could demo the three string guitar effectively:

https://youtu.be/moOf9n4MPWU

[redpoint]

Originally Posted by Andy Howell

You need to do two basic tests - both easy with a mobile recorder.

Firstly, audition the space in which you record for reverberation.

Secondly, experiment with modest gain levels. Record once, raise level and record again, etc. Compare them in your DAW for clipping.

The other advice above is spot on.

Could you say a little more about auditioning the space for reverb? I think the idea is to find a room without much reverb?

[redpoint]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

I don't use a H5 or H6, but perhaps you can make up a homebrew mount similar to what I use so I can see the rear screen on my point-n'-shoot camera for doing simple videos. This works out really well for using a device that has a rear-facing screen and you could watch the screen to set input levels before you hit record.

don't laugh... it works! The mirror stand allowed me to frame the shot so I could demo the three string guitar effectively:

https://youtu.be/moOf9n4MPWU

Ah nice, that's a cool solution to use a mirror!

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by redpoint

Could you say a little more about auditioning the space for reverb? I think the idea is to find a room without much reverb?

Hi rp

The further you place the recorder/mics from the guitar, the more room noise (reverberation) you will pick up. The closer you place them to the guitar, the more bass and low mid frequencies will be enhanced (not usually in a positive way).

So if you set the recorder up 12" away, then 18", 24" etc and clap you hands several times (with space between the claps) and listen back to the recordings with the volume turned up you can discover what the room characteristics are. You can do more elaborate tests than these, but for quick-n-dirty this will get you there.

I often just follow the general guideline of staying toward the center of the room, away from corners, or adjacent walls, and mic the guitar from between 10-14".

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by redpoint

But on something like the H5 or H6, the meters are actually facing away from you in most cases.

So how do you set levels in the H5 or H6 easily?

Yeah, that's one thing that's unfortunate about the H5/H6. It seems to be designed for recording someone else - with the mics facing away from the operator, not for "selfies". It's not an issue for me because I'm usually using external mics, so I just rotate the recorder so the controls are facing me. But with the internal mics, a little trial and error should fix it. Start with the dials at 5 - (most likely a good setting, based on my experience). Record a few seconds of the loudest you will play, then play it back, moving to where you can see the meters. Adjust as needed and repeat until you're happy. Note that you don't have to be all that precise, all you want to avoid is going over and distorting, and not being so low that you have no signal. You have plenty of headroom and floor above noise at 24 bits, so even a fairly low signal is fine, you can always raise it later.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by redpoint

On something like the H2 or H2n, that seems pretty easy to do, because the display is facing you. But on something like the H5 or H6, the meters are actually facing away from you in most cases.

So how do you set levels in the H5 or H6 easily?

Thanks!

When I record with my H5 I usually wear headphones so I can hear what's going on regardless of whether I'm using the built in mics or external ones. I can still see the levels even though the display is upside down when using the built in mics. When I use external mics I usually remember to turn the thing around so I can actually see the display right side up

[redpoint]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi rp
So if you set the recorder up 12" away, then 18", 24" etc and clap you hands several times (with space between the claps) and listen back to the recordings with the volume turned up you can discover what the room characteristics are. You can do more elaborate tests than these, but for quick-n-dirty this will get you there.

I often just follow the general guideline of staying toward the center of the room, away from corners, or adjacent walls, and mic the guitar from between 10-14".

Thanks, that makes sense.

[redpoint]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Yeah, that's one thing that's unfortunate about the H5/H6. It seems to be designed for recording someone else - with the mics facing away from the operator, not for "selfies". It's not an issue for me because I'm usually using external mics, so I just rotate the recorder so the controls are facing me. But with the internal mics, a little trial and error should fix it. Start with the dials at 5 - (most likely a good setting, based on my experience). Record a few seconds of the loudest you will play, then play it back, moving to where you can see the meters. Adjust as needed and repeat until you're happy. Note that you don't have to be all that precise, all you want to avoid is going over and distorting, and not being so low that you have no signal. You have plenty of headroom and floor above noise at 24 bits, so even a fairly low signal is fine, you can always raise it later.

Thanks for the detailed steps -- now I just have to decide if I want the very portable H2n or the slightly less portable H5/H6.

Interestingly, in the comments of another one of his videos, he does mention "The H2N doesn't sound as good as the H2. I don't know if they switched mic capsules or preamps or both, but it's just not as nice."

I'm sure it doesn't actually matter in my case since the performance is going to be the problem, not the mic, but it did make me briefly consider looking for an old H2.

[RodB]

I use an H5, and like Barry says, the display is still visible when recording guitar with the internal mics - at least good enough to get the level OK.

Serious recording I do with external mics, so have the recorder easily in view.

In any case it’s always worth doing a test recording and be prepared to adjust.

[stevecuss]

I'll attempt to summarize some already excellent advice and add some comment:

-- all else being equal, stay away from low ceilings and corners of the room. Also, consider recording outside unless noise is a factor.

-- The H5/H6 have decent budget preamps. Doug Young recently posted clips comparing Zoom to some high end preamps and the high end clearly best the Zoom, but the Zoom is no slouch for amateur home recording.

-- Set the gain levels somewhere between 4.5 - 5.5. Anything less seems too quiet, anything more picks up a lot of noise. Of course, YMMV, but this is a basic jumping off point.

-- Place the zoom 8"-16" away from the guitar. Start with it pointing to the 14th fret and see if you like the tone.

-- Try to overcome the mental madness that comes along with recording. It can always sound better, moving the gain or the zoom fractionally can change the quality, as can a different room, but nothing will beat musicality and expression in your performance.

Hope you enjoy!

[redpoint]

Originally Posted by stevecuss

-- all else being equal, stay away from low ceilings and corners of the room. Also, consider recording outside unless noise is a factor.

Glad to hear that recording outside is a good idea for potentially ignoring the room reverb issues. One of the things that got me started down this path was seeing the quality of recordings on Youtube with portable recorders outside.

Originally Posted by stevecuss

-- The H5/H6 have decent budget preamps. Doug Young recently posted clips comparing Zoom to some high end preamps and the high end clearly best the Zoom, but the Zoom is no slouch for amateur home recording.

Thanks for pointing that out. I did listen to the clips posted and agree that the Zoom sounds good. I have an older interface, a Line 6 UX2. It's more than 10 years old at this point so I suspect anything today would be an upgrade.

Originally Posted by stevecuss

-- Place the zoom 8"-16" away from the guitar. Start with it pointing to the 14th fret and see if you like the tone.

Ah, sorry! I realized I didn't make it clear that I wanted to record both vocals and guitar at the same time. The advice given in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4NZoqZA4zM&t=4m33s) was to place the microphone about 4/5 of the way between the mouth and the soundhole of the guitar. This is why I was asking about setting levels. I think that if I placed the unit at the guitar's level, I'd be able to see roughly where the levels were.
[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by stevecuss

-- Try to overcome the mental madness that comes along with recording. It can always sound better, moving the gain or the zoom fractionally can change the quality, as can a different room, but nothing will beat musicality and expression in your performance.

Great advice! I definitely am guilty of going down the internet research black hole. I'm sure that any of these recorders will be more than good enough for me. I totally agree that improving my playing and singing will help much more than the choice of recorder.