UK Bans Petrol, Diesel & Hybrid Cars By 2035

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Not true scaled solar is entirely possible for most areas

Yep, scaled solar...it is possible in fact, it’s being done.
I’ve read up on it. Seems we are a long, long way from that making a dent in the conventional generation of electricity.
For lots of reasons.

[HodgdonExtreme]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Not true scaled solar is entirely possible for most areas

So, per above, USA consumes 5.1 Trillion kw-hr of energy (currently derived from gas) to power their cars.

In an area with good sun, you can get ~1kw of solar power per square meter. Obviously that's not available 24 hours a day... During summertime here in sunny northern Alabama, I can get almost 7 hours a day of 1kw/m^2 power.

Anyway, even assuming 24 hour a day sunlight achieving 1kw/m^2, we'd need one square meter of solar panel per kw-hr we wish to consume.

Thus, 5.1 trillion square meters. That is 3125 square miles.

Where are all those solar panels going to come from? Where will they be placed? What will the environmental impact be from the mining of materials and the manufacturing processes?? What tradeoffs will be made when that many square miles of earth is now in the shade, rather than soaking up the sun as it has for the last 4.7 Billion years?

[RalphH]

Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme

I'm not poo-pooing the move to EV's, and cutting emissions. I *am* poo-pooing the pontification of it with unreasonable and unrealistic timelines.

Yeah but if you don't set ambitious targets then nothing happens. If we're far short of it when we get there, plans will change. We're not going to be reduced to walking, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try (hard) to go EV - where there's a will (and a target) theres a way. Lets not forget this is 15 years away, not 15 months.

Just 8 years ago - half the time we're talking about there - the UK produced 33% of electricity from coal and 10% renewable. Now it's 2% coal and 30% renewable. We didn't get there by saying "targets are hard, let's just see what happens".

It's also important because it sends a pretty clear message to car manufacturers that they will be out of (UK) business unless they start putting the R&D work in now to be producing affordable electric cars for the average family within the next 15 years. Unless you do that they'll just keep doing what's easy - changing the trim and calling it this year's new model.

[imwjl]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

...and still no reply to the dilemma of tens of thousands of batteries to be disposed of...
...soon to be hundreds of thousands.

I don't know what you wanted or expected for a reply but I've found info that fills gaps in my knowledge and understanding.

That topic also reminds me of when I was in the recycling business and saw new methods and markets come up. Things considered impossible to recycle became recycling markets.

I've got to get back to work but am very sure you can find recent news or articles on the recycling topic. I recall reading about BMW's and Tesla's efforts. Not exactly cars, but Apple has has some news releases or been in the news for their robotic approach already recycling their products.

Just like racing has influenced products in the past, I believe I also read the small niche of formula e racing is or will be getting into battery recycling.

[RedJoker]

Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme

So, per above, USA consumes 5.1 Trillion kw-hr of energy (currently derived from gas) to power their cars.

In an area with good sun, you can get ~1kw of solar power per square meter. Obviously that's not available 24 hours a day... During summertime here in sunny northern Alabama, I can get almost 7 hours a day of 1kw/m^2 power.

Anyway, even assuming 24 hour a day sunlight achieving 1kw/m^2, we'd need one square meter of solar panel per kw-hr we wish to consume.

Thus, 5.1 trillion square meters. That is 3125 square miles.

Where are all those solar panels going to come from? Where will they be placed? What will the environmental impact be from the mining of materials and the manufacturing processes?? What tradeoffs will be made when that many square miles of earth is now in the shade, rather than soaking up the sun as it has for the last 4.7 Billion years?

Yup, all of those panels have an environmental effect but it is MUCH smaller than extracting, refining and burning fossil fuels. As I mentioned in my previous post, that payback is about 2 years for my panels. They're now just over 4 years old so it's all upside for the next 25-30 years of life.

So that's a good direction to go for some of our power, right?

[RedJoker]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

...and still no reply to the dilemma of tens of thousands of batteries to be disposed of...
...soon to be hundreds of thousands.

Actually, there's a lot of work being done to put those batteries back into service as grid storage to support solar and wind systems.

[Brucebubs]

Ewan McGregor and Charley Boorman have finished their third riding adventure, having ridden a pair of electric Harley-Davidson LiveWires up through the Americas.

The route took them from Ushuaia, Argentina, to Los Angeles, California in the USA. The trip finished in a similar fashion to previous journeys with an invite-only group ride of 40 local riders, stopping off at a Harley-Davidson dealership for a quick charge before making their way to a party in downtown LA.

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by imwjl

I don't know what you wanted or expected for a reply but I've found info that fills gaps in my knowledge and understanding.

That topic also reminds me of when I was in the recycling business and saw new methods and markets come up. Things considered impossible to recycle became recycling markets.

I've got to get back to work but am very sure you can find recent news or articles on the recycling topic. I recall reading about BMW's and Tesla's efforts. Not exactly cars, but Apple has has some news releases or been in the news for their robotic approach already recycling their products.

Just like racing has influenced products in the past, I believe I also read the small niche of formula e racing is or will be getting into battery recycling.

I literally wanted any kind of reply so...thanks!
The challenges that will be created in disposal of these spent batteries and the environmental impact they will have weren’t being discussed, just the need to get away from petroleum as fast as possible without regard to other ramifications.
That was about it.

[KevWind]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme

So, per above, USA consumes 5.1 Trillion kw-hr of energy (currently derived from gas) to power their cars.

In an area with good sun, you can get ~1kw of solar power per square meter. Obviously that's not available 24 hours a day... During summertime here in sunny northern Alabama, I can get almost 7 hours a day of 1kw/m^2 power.

Anyway, even assuming 24 hour a day sunlight achieving 1kw/m^2, we'd need one square meter of solar panel per kw-hr we wish to consume.

Thus, 5.1 trillion square meters. That is 3125 square miles.

Where are all those solar panels going to come from? Where will they be placed? What will the environmental impact be from the mining of materials and the manufacturing processes?? What tradeoffs will be made when that many square miles of earth is now in the shade, rather than soaking up the sun as it has for the last 4.7 Billion years?

Unfortunately there is a fair amount debate on the accuracy of trying to convert gas energy to electrical energy ratings
The 5.1 trillion figure looks like it is using a 100% conversion efficiency rating of 36 kwh per gallon of gas , but 100% is not possible . 33.7 is more widely held as accurate

According to the EIA https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=23&t=10 in 2018 the US used 142.86 billion gallons of gas . Best estimates of energy conversion put a Gallon of gas producing 33.7 kwh of energy So 4.8 trillion kwh is probably a more accurate estimate.

BUT the fly in ointment is that Internal combustion engines are only about 30% to 40% efficient in the amount of energy actually transferred to the wheels, the rest is dissipated as heat. Where as electric motors are between 85% and 95% efficient in energy transfer to the wheels.

So taking the average for each and say 35% for the ICE and 90% for Elec.
So now we can reduce your equation for what it would take in elec generation . by almost say 25% to travel the same miles as the gasoline .
And and even then that the number assumes that solar tech will not get more efficient in production of wattage per sq. meter of panel. Which is probably not going to be the case.

[buddyhu]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

...and still no reply to the dilemma of tens of thousands of batteries to be disposed of...
...soon to be hundreds of thousands.

Here you go:


In a new “impact report”, Tesla addressed the idea of recycling batteries:

“A common question we hear is, “What happens to Tesla vehicle battery packs once they reach their end of life?” An important distinction between fossil fuels and lithium-ion batteries as an energy source is that while fossil fuels are extracted and used once, the materials in a lithium-ion battery are recyclable. When petroleum is pumped out of the ground, chemically refined and then burned, it releases harmful emissions into the atmosphere that are not recovered for reuse. Battery materials, in contrast, are refined and put into a cell, and will still remain at the end of their life, when they can be recycled to recover its valuable materials for reuse over and over again.”

Tesla does not yet have many batteries returning at the end of life, but they are making use of prototypes to explore recycling options.

And, continuing in the report:

“Tesla claims to be “developing a unique battery recycling system” at Gigafactory 1 in Nevada.

“At Gigafactory 1, Tesla is developing a unique battery recycling system that will process both battery manufacturing scrap and end-of-life batteries. Through this system, the recovery of critical minerals such as lithium and cobalt will be maximized along with the recovery of all metals used in the battery cell, such as copper, aluminum and steel. All of these materials will be recovered in forms optimized for new battery material production.”

~~~~~~~~

Way back in the year 2000, Tesla claimed that 60% of their battery could be recycled, 10% could be reused, and 30% would go to landfill. They may be more efficient now. AND, their batteries are lasting much longer than originally estimated.
~~~~~~
Regarding recharging: you can charge a Tesla very slowly out of a standard outlet in an emergency, and can charge a bit more quickly (but still slow) by plugging into a 240 volt, 20 amp circuit (like you use for an electric clothes dryer) You can charge overnight at home using one of their chargers (uses a 60 amp circuit), or get shared in about 12 hours (about 40% slower than with the charger) using a 240 volt 40 amp outlet. Yes, longer range trips require careful planning so you can get fully charged in less than an hour at a Tesla super charger. But for many folks, owning an electric car and renting a gas powered car (or using other options like planes and Ubers upon arrival) is quite viable. And for most two (or more) car families, an EV could be one of them).
~~~~~
Power grid issues: We can’t install solar panels on our roof (too many adjacent trees and little southern exposure), so we are exploring the community solar option, where companies buy or lease land that may not be very desirable for general use, and install solar panels, and then sell or lease these panels and the electricity they generate to individuals like myself.

[imwjl]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

I literally wanted any kind of reply so...thanks!
The challenges that will be created in disposal of these spent batteries and the environmental impact they will have weren’t being discussed, just the need to get away from petroleum as fast as possible without regard to other ramifications.
That was about it.

Maybe not here but yes for the recycling and minimal impact being considered in sustainability. The net effect of solutions and decisions are considered.

Interesting situations do arise when the markets are poor. As an example, some people still pay for recycling to occur when markets don't make it profitable and some choose to stop.

[Jeff Scott]

Originally Posted by RalphH

It's also important because it sends a pretty clear message to car manufacturers that they will be out of (UK) business...

Will there be a Lucas electric car, in the future?

[Murphy Slaw]

Pardon my ignorance, but here in the Heartland I've never noticed a charging station. How do they work? Do you pay by the minute? hour? kilowatt?

Is it like pulling up to the pump, first come, first served? Who owns them, I mean is it Exxon/Mobil or the local power Company? What's the profit margin now? Won't the margins be less as they are more widely used / more competition?

Does Walmart, or whoever the land owner is, get a cut? What's that percentage?

Do people sit in their cars for hours while these things charge or go shopping?

How are the road use taxes being collected that are included with every gallon of gas? Will that be added at the charging stations or billed by the mile?

Sounds like a lot of opportunities are out there if those vehicles are that popular, but I'm not seeing it yet in Farm Country. We all still drive 4x4 trucks with a Hemi.

[imwjl]

Originally Posted by Murphy Slaw

Pardon my ignorance, but here in the Heartland I've never noticed a charging station. How do they work? Do you pay by the minute? hour? kilowatt?

Is it like pulling up to the pump, first come, first served? Who owns them, I mean is it Exxon/Mobil or the local power Company? What's the profit margin now? Won't the margins be less as they are more widely used / more competition?

Does Walmart, or whoever the land owner is, get a cut? What's that percentage?

Do people sit in their cars for hours while these things charge or go shopping?

How are the road use taxes being collected that are included with every gallon of gas? Will that be added at the charging stations or billed by the mile?

Sounds like a lot of opportunities are out there if those vehicles are that popular, but I'm not seeing it yet in Farm Country. We all still drive 4x4 trucks with a Hemi.

Lots of questions in one post but there are good sources to explain how it all works. There are a few leading firms putting in charge stations. Interoperability is not ideal but the BEV owners close to me have adapters.

I live at edge of a metro area ahead of the curve on this stuff so you see Model 3s in rural areas. I know people excited to get either or of the Rivian or Tesla "truck". One farm friend nursing his old Dodge pickup has interest and has said he's already got 220 volt in a few places so thinks it will be easy.

A very close friend with a Model 3 stands out in this stuff because no one expected him to ever own one for a few reasons. So far he's not had any issues with travel in upper Midwest and a jaunt to NW AR. He admits a few breaks for food or toilet have been a little longer but nothing's been a problem for the sorts of travel he does most often.

My boss cites two mess ups for their being early Model 3 owners and their fault. His wife miss judged on a trip, and he did not yet have adapter for the charge station by one of our business locations. He had all the adapters needed after a few weeks. They are waiting for a Model Y and Rivian so I don't think they worry about charges.

One friend has a trailer hitch on his Model 3 and a utility trailer. He points out his trailer's capacity and how powerful or quick the car is.

Same friend reports a phenomenon where some pickup truck and SUV drivers behave badly in his presence. He said he'll take the time to send the video (the car's cameras) to police if it happens again.

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by Murphy Slaw

Pardon my ignorance, but here in the Heartland I've never noticed a charging station. How do they work? Do you pay by the minute? hour? kilowatt?

Is it like pulling up to the pump, first come, first served? Who owns them, I mean is it Exxon/Mobil or the local power Company? What's the profit margin now? Won't the margins be less as they are more widely used / more competition?

Does Walmart, or whoever the land owner is, get a cut? What's that percentage?

Do people sit in their cars for hours while these things charge or go shopping?

How are the road use taxes being collected that are included with every gallon of gas? Will that be added at the charging stations or billed by the mile?

Sounds like a lot of opportunities are out there if those vehicles are that popular, but I'm not seeing it yet in Farm Country. We all still drive 4x4 trucks with a Hemi.

I’ve seen them in parking garages in Cleveland where the upper crust drives Tesla’s. I don’t know if it’s private enterprise putting them in or what.
They go to work, park and charge their Tesla’s and it’s all good.

I’m sure I will stir the natives in some corners, but I don’t see electric vehicles being a “thing” in any great way for quite a long time. At least not out here in rural “Amurica”