Eastman AR610 - Next step?

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by RJVB

WHat are the woods and bracing on that one?

I find it seems a bit counterproductive that you consider a mahogany-backed guitar for its warmer sound, and then try the Loar with monel strings. While very authentic in a certain way they don't do the guitar's sound any favours in my experience (and I've tried to love them...).
Strings that do work very well are the TI Spectrum 13s but there's another aspect that shouldn't be overlooked here. These aren't lightly built guitars, probably less so than the Eastmans equivalents, and both spruce and a solid maple back can take a while to be played/broken in (or open back up if it hasn't been played for years). My own Loar had hardly been played when I got it at 4-5 years old but apparently enough to open up noticeably with just a few days of the kind of digging-in I like to do. A deeper/lusher bass and mellower but also ringier highs (IMHO thanks to resp. the maple back and spruce top). I can only advise you to keep an open mind and eyes peeled for other examples you could try - unless of course there's really nothing in the videos I posted that speaks to you. BTW, the LH700 recorded by Rob Mackillop was bought by the Belgian youtuber DaddyStovePipe who made her sound very differently (to my ears).

The Godin 5th Avenue is made from hot pressed 2.5mm plywood - 3 layers cherry/maple/cherry. It has two tone bar braces along the top and no back braces. The neck is maple bolt-on. Its 16" wide and 3" deep.

What I like about it is its dry "pop". And the fact it sounds like I'm plugged into a valve amp. I think that I just could do with a little more from the 6th string (although from out front it seems pretty well balanced, even if it doesn't from my playing perspective!). My 5th Avenue is a good guitar to use on stage with just a mic' - it is a better tool for what I'm doing at the moment with the band I'm playing with than my D-18 or 000. Regarding finding something better - I'll know what that is only when I get it in my hands. And it may not actually exist!!!

I have found that with many instruments (not just guitars) that often the reality doesn't follow convention. Such and such a design or material is supposed to sound like X but in reality it doesn't, or at least it doesn't when I play it. So I'm quite open minded about trying out instruments. Some things I know just aren't going to work for me ergonomically. And I certainly like guitars that are a little sparse and fundamental in timbre (rather than rich and full of overtones). So an archtop that "strums well" may actually not work for me, because I'm not too keen on flattops that "strum well" either.

I have listened to comparative videos of X braced and parallel braced archtops and generally I have liked the parallel braced instrument s better. However, I have liked the sound of the x braced Eastmans. And I have liked the mahogany Eastman's over the maple ones in video clips. It is not going to be until I get an Eastman in my hands that I will be able to know if my expectations are correct.

I love the way my Godin sounds from the front on this clip. And I may well not find anything that suits me better.

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

The Godin 5th Avenue is made from hot pressed 2.5mm plywood - 3 layers cherry/maple/cherry. It has two tone bar braces along the top and no back braces. The neck is maple bolt-on. Its 16" wide and 3" deep.

Right, that's more or less Godin's signature laminate. No wonder the instrument sounds dry: that's exactly what maple will do when you use it for a top (I expect cherry too but could be wrong).

And I certainly like guitars that are a little sparse and fundamental in timbre (rather than rich and full of overtones). So an archtop that "strums well" may actually not work for me, because I'm not too keen on flattops that "strum well" either.

I don't really know what "strums well" means. I suspect it means that those flattops would give me the impression that the soundhole is like a window open on a big cathedral where a bunch of harpsichords are being played way too fast on the opposite end: lots of notes and overtones stumbling over each other. Not my thing, and a priori not something that a (parallel-braced) archtop will do.

But much as I hate to say it, it also sounds like a not-too-big-bodied all-hog guitar (possibly ladder-braced) could be your thing!

Have you looked if there are Kay or Harmony archtops available in your neck of the woods? AFAIK they're often laminates but will have a spruce top that should make them sound better than your Godin. And they used to be budget guitars.

And I have liked the mahogany Eastman's over the maple ones in video clips.

Well, Eastman don't make parallel-braced archtops that I know of, so you don't have a choice in that matter, and I agree that maple kind of makes its bad reputation true in their archtops...
(Fortunately not in my Cabaret with its arched back!)

[Silly Moustache]

Hi Robin,

I have an Eastman AR805. 16" and Maple.
I've not met a mahogany one but I do have the AR805. in maple.

Eastmans are far louder than the Godin (I've only ever used nickel mediums), but it is more open than some, almost sounds like a flat top. I'm not sure that a hog would project like a maple back, just thinking of my Waterloo vs my rosewood guitars, but 17" should make a significant difference.

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Hi Robin,

I have an Eastman AR805. 16" and Maple.
I've not met a mahogany one but I do have the AR805. in maple.

Eastmans are far louder than the Godin (I've only ever used nickel mediums), but it is more open than some, almost sounds like a flat top. I'm not sure that a hog would project like a maple back, just thinking of my Waterloo vs my rosewood guitars, but 17" should make a significant difference.

That 805 sounds lovely! Are you sure that it's 16"? Would it like to come and live in Wales!

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

I'm not sure that a hog would project like a maple back, just thinking of my Waterloo vs my rosewood guitars

So to estimate how a hog vs. maple-backed but otherwise (presumably) identical archtop would sound you compare a hog-backed flattop to rosewood-backed flattops of different make/models? Are you sure your moustache is your only silly bit?

You're not the only one who think these almost sound like flattops - and I never know whether that's a compliment or not!

[RomanS]

Originally Posted by RJVB

I find it seems a bit counterproductive that you consider a mahogany-backed guitar for its warmer sound, and then try the Loar with monel strings. While very authentic in a certain way they don't do the guitar's sound any favours in my experience (and I've tried to love them...).

Couldn't disagree more with this - Loar and monels were made for each other.
I've tried lots of different strings with my LH300 (nickel, PBs, D'Addario NIB, Thomastik Plectrums), but nothing sounds as smooth and silky as the Martin Retro monel 13s.

Robin, you said you restrung that Loar you tried with monels, and found them too bright - well, monel strings need quite a bit of a break-in period; the sound really tiny and brash for the first week or so, but after that, they get really smooth and warm (with not a lot of bass, though), and stay like that for a loooong time (I think I haven't changed strings on the LH300 in a year).

BTW, I play similar music like you do - old country (Hank Williams,...), Carter-style, Travis picking, Western swing, and I also have a Godin 5th Avenue (but the cutaway & 2x P90 version) - and unplugged, I like the Loar a lot better, and often use it live with a mic, MY Godin would never work for that, I just use it plugged-in.

True - my Loar also needed some fretwork right out of the box, I also swapped the bridge for a better one - mine didn't have any other issues; one of my favorite guitars out of the 30+ I own, and also one of my longest owned ones (I got it maybe 15 years ago? Can't remember exactly, but it was shortly after this model was introduced the first time).

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by RJVB

But much as I hate to say it, it also sounds like a not-too-big-bodied all-hog guitar (possibly ladder-braced) could be your thing!

FWIW, about 1 year ago I had sold my last violin and was on a serious quest to acquire a nylon-string archtop. I had decided I wanted one because during the preceding months I had realised how much (and why) I prefered my 16" spruce+maple archtop over the (almost) same-sized spruce+maple jumbo that I had owned. My reasoning was that these differences would be exactly what I needed to adapt the sound of a typical classical guitar to my liking. I almost got to own a Slaman Dome taking my chances with its reportedly not really loud acoustic sound but I put it off "until later" when I found out just in time that the nutwidth and string spread would be too narrow.
In the meantime I had been discussing with other luthier than the ones who would accept to build/sell me such a unicorn, and learnt that the typical f-hole archtop sound comes to a large extent from the f-holes and the arched back. Build a flattop with either, and you get some of that immediacy, transparency and projection of an archtop. I briefly discussed an f-hole hybrid with Dowina, who were very interested but evidently could not make any guarantees about the outcome and would need much longer than I was hoping to have to wait. I might have gone through if I'd have twice my budget but I only had money for the Cabaret that I ended up buying. It's not entirely perfect but I have yet to regret that choice.

Reason I'm telling all this is that my quoted remark was inspired by having stumbled upon a presentation of the Guild OM-120 (and its M sister), and scratching a bit deeper today I discovered that they also have a range of archback Westerlies. Spruce over hog and cheap, but sadly with a 42.8mm nutwidth that I understand is probably too narrow for you.

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by RomanS

Couldn't disagree more with this - Loar and monels were made for each other.

Well, tastes differ, and musical repertoires too. I'm not looking for an authentic sound from back when the L5 was newly introduced - and if I were I'd probably use brass or copper wounds with a plain G! Because IIRC monel strings were introduced around 1935 and were expensive - and I'm not someone to embrace novelties quickly plus I'm "cheap" nowadays

Part of my gripe with monels is that they sound very different on a recording than what I hear as a player. Playing I just notice how nasty they feel under my fingers but they do appear to give a nice sound with deep enough basses. Those basses disappear very quickly in a recording though, too quickly even for me. The other gripe has to do with the neutrality often attributed to these strings: for me that comes from the fact that they add little to no "colouring" to the sound of a plain wire string. And ultimately I'd love to get rid of those 2 plain strings because even the 13+16 gauge I use sound too jingly down low when I start digging in a bit (and I can't go heavier).
I only play round-core silk-and-steel strings btw, and even had Pyramid make me a set of those in monel. Still no joy.

I stand by the remarks I made but agree that they're even more relevant when we're talking about using brand new strings. I haven't yet been in a situation where I'd want to put "my" strings on a guitar I'm trying out, but would prepare a set (of the wound strings) for that purpose if in any way possible - to me any kind of never-played wound string sounds too brash.

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

That 805 sounds lovely! Are you sure that it's 16"? Would it like to come and live in Wales!

Most definately a 16" all my archtops are 16" I might sell the Harmony,and need to sell the '34/'35 Gibson L4/L7 - You deserve it!

See

So difficult to access videos as YouTube is persecuting me.

[Dave Richard]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

Thanks - I think that I would struggle with the narrow nut width of the Zenith. I have had the top section of my index finger amputated and know that I need 37mm string spacing at the nut to play cleanly. 1 11/16" is the minimum I can get away with, and only then if it doesn't have rolled edges or, in some cases, binding.

Both of my Epis mentioned have nut widths of 1-11/16”.

[RomanS]

Originally Posted by RJVB

Well, tastes differ, and musical repertoires too. I'm not looking for an authentic sound from back when the L5 was newly introduced - and if I were I'd probably use brass or copper wounds with a plain G! Because IIRC monel strings were introduced around 1935 and were expensive - and I'm not someone to embrace novelties quickly plus I'm "cheap" nowadays

Part of my gripe with monels is that they sound very different on a recording than what I hear as a player. Playing I just notice how nasty they feel under my fingers but they do appear to give a nice sound with deep enough basses. Those basses disappear very quickly in a recording though, too quickly even for me. The other gripe has to do with the neutrality often attributed to these strings: for me that comes from the fact that they add little to no "colouring" to the sound of a plain wire string. And ultimately I'd love to get rid of those 2 plain strings because even the 13+16 gauge I use sound too jingly down low when I start digging in a bit (and I can't go heavier).
I only play round-core silk-and-steel strings btw, and even had Pyramid make me a set of those in monel. Still no joy.

I stand by the remarks I made but agree that they're even more relevant when we're talking about using brand new strings. I haven't yet been in a situation where I'd want to put "my" strings on a guitar I'm trying out, but would prepare a set (of the wound strings) for that purpose if in any way possible - to me any kind of never-played wound string sounds too brash.

While that combo may not fit YOUR repertoire, it is perfect for what the OP was asking for - for the styles of music he is playing, a carved-top archtop with monels is a great choice, because a lot of the original artists playing "his" music also used a similar setup.

I would NEVER recommend anybody playing that early country, Carter style, Travis picking - based Americana silk and steel strings - not enough twang, not enough attack, way too mellow; that's exactly what you DON'T want for this type of music; you want something more "in-your-face", more brash, but not jangly or "sweet" - and that's exactly what monels will give you!

Oh, and BTW, if you're playing an archtop, as the player you will always hear something completely different than what a recording will sound like, because an archtop by design projects most of it sound directly forward, towards the audience, rather than towards the player.

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by Dave Richard

Both of my Epis mentioned have nut widths of 1-11/16”.

Note that there's always some margin to increase the string spread through a new nut, if you're not very likely to pull or push the E strings off the edge. My nylon-strung reso has a (small) 45mm nut but the string spread turned out to be identical to the spread on the 48mm Cordoba Fusion I had for a short while.

Originally Posted by RomanS

While that combo may not fit YOUR repertoire, it is perfect for what the OP was asking for - for the styles of music he is playing, a carved-top archtop with monels is a great choice, because a lot of the original artists playing "his" music also used a similar setup.

However well that may be it's still not the perfect choice if he doesn't like the sound! Robin doesn't strike me as the kind of person who wants to sound like an worn old 78tpm record when he plays Robert Johnson just because RJ sounds that way

Oh, and BTW, if you're playing an archtop, as the player you will always hear something completely different than what a recording will sound like, because an archtop by design projects most of it sound directly forward, towards the audience, rather than towards the player.

Mine begs to differ to some extent; she radiates a lot better than the mini-jumbo she replaced. And for the rest: you want the audience to hear more than you're hearing, not less (of the sounds you create on purpose of course)! I wouldn't have gone through the trouble of typing down my experience if I had heard more bass in my recording than I heard as a player!

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Most definately a 16" all my archtops are 16" I might sell the Harmony,and need to sell the '34/'35 Gibson L4/L7 - You deserve it!

See

So difficult to access videos as YouTube is persecuting me.

I didn't realise that the AR805 was a 16", I thought that it was a 17" like the 610. I've seen a couple of side by side reviews of the two guitars and no one mentioned the different body size, just the different woods! But I can see from the specs on the Eastman website that the AR805 is actually smaller. Mmm..... So some of the difference that I am hearing may well be down to the body size, not the b/s woods at all.

Your Gibson is lovely, but way beyond my price point - and I do want a take anywhere (pub, gigs , parties etc) guitar. Something with historic value (in terms of its price point) is not going to work for me.

I'm in no hurry. I'm glad that I had the opportunity to play the Loar LH-600-VS over the weekend. But I have had my hands on and inside so many hundreds of Chinese OEM guitars I could tell that it wasn't for me. I thought to myself "This has a neck from the AXL factories" and sure enough, a bit of research when I got home and The Loar is indeed an AXL brand (Recording King et al). There will be some great ones out there, but also ones with silly build errors - like the one I tried. When I ran Busker Guitars, I insisted on one specific tech to mount all my necks (yep, just one guy) because I knew that he understood what he was doing. Whoever is managing the Loar brand really just need to do some staff training in the factory.