Boutique Brands and B/S Impact on Tone

[Samiamx]

Are there certain boutique brands whose tone is impacted more by their back and sides woods than other brands?

I have owned several boutiques and A/B’ed them vs the same brand and top, but different back woods and in my limited experience I noticed Santa Cruz seems to be more sensitive to wood selection’s impact in tone that Huss and Collings (which are the only brands I’ve compared that way).

I hope the question makes sense, but I’m basically trying to determine if wood selection impacts tone more on some boutiques vs other brands and if so which brands?

Sam

[jaymarsch]

Two thoughts:
When I had my custom Kramer built I was looking at some higher priced mahogany sets such as from the Tree, a beautiful set of quilted mahogany, and some fiddle back. I asked Sparky specifically if there was a tonal benefit to these woods over straight grained Honduran mahogany and he said that in general no, though certain pieces of wood for backs can vary in how they reflect sound. How discernible these differences are depends on the build and the attack of the player, among other things.
A luthier like Tim McKnight who builds double backed guitars, sandwiching two different woods together such as rosewood on the inside and maple on the outside, probably has some good information regarding the answer to your question.
As with so many things related to guitar making, it is a culmination of many parts and compromises to bring it all together so almost anything can affect everything else, including a piece of backwood - the inherent properties of the wood, it’s thickness, how it’s braced, and even how it’s finished.
Best,
Jayne

[Mycroft]

It depends. Not all backs are thicknessed and braced the same. Some are more reflective. Some are more active. That is, they vibrate more from the energy coming from the top, while the reflective back "reflects" most of that energy back towards the top. Both backs absorbs some frequencies and reflect some others, which is why a guitar with a Rosewood back has different tonal qualities from one with Mahogany. But the active back absorbs more and reflects more, "coloring" the guitars tone more. It may also give a more 3-demensional quality to the tone.

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

It depends. Not all backs are thicknessed and braced the same. Some are more reflective. Some are more active. That is, they vibrate more from the energy coming from the top, while the reflective back "reflects" most of that energy back towards the top. Both backs absorbs some frequencies and reflect some others, which is why a guitar with a Rosewood back has different tonal qualities from one with Mahogany. But the active back absorbs more and reflects more, "coloring" the guitars tone more. It may also give a more 3-demensional quality to the tone.

THIS^^^is a very good answer, but I think what Mycroft is talking about is found a lot more in the solo or small group luthier world, than in the small factory/boutique maker world.

Now perhaps Santa Cruz is using thinner backs and sides than Collings or Huss & Dalton or maybe it was just the difference in the overall voice that the tops of each of those guitars imparted.

That is the problem, if we agree in general that the top is most of the voice of a guitar, than can we really ascribe differences in tone to the back and sides, or could it just actually be the differences in the voices each top brings to it's guitar.

I will just say that my thinking was radically changed by getting to take part in a really well controlled blind listening test, where everything I confidently knew...so I thought...about tops and backs and sides, and bracing patterns, and tone production was tossed neatly and succinctly out the window, and made me realize that guitars are each very much unique individuals, and any guitar with any wood combo could/can sound the way I love a guitar to sound, just depending on how the top, back, and sides and acoustic design of the guitar come together and work together.

Now, I just take it guitar by guitar and how any given guitar sounds to me, regardless of the brand, size, shape, style, and woods used.


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[jaymarsch]

Thanks for your clear response, Mycroft. And, as duff says, best to just take it guitar to guitar and listen for what each gives you.
Best,
Jayne

[Kh1967]

In my experience, it is not the builder in as much as it is the individual guitar. As others have noted, the back/sides play a smaller part of the tone than the top and even at that, each guitar is completely unique.

[Ernesto]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

It depends. Not all backs are thicknessed and braced the same. Some are more reflective. Some are more active. That is, they vibrate more from the energy coming from the top, while the reflective back "reflects" most of that energy back towards the top. Both backs absorbs some frequencies and reflect some others, which is why a guitar with a Rosewood back has different tonal qualities from one with Mahogany. But the active back absorbs more and reflects more, "coloring" the guitars tone more. It may also give a more 3-demensional quality to the tone.

I think that's a great description. The more active the back, the more it influences the sound. Dana Bourgeois says exactly the same in one of his videos on tonewoods, if I remember correctly.

[marciero]

Originally Posted by jaymarsch

A luthier like Tim McKnight who builds double backed guitars, sandwiching two different woods together such as rosewood on the inside and maple on the outside, probably has some good information regarding the answer to your question.

aka plywood. Not to be snarky- this is a viable method of construction, and the traditional method for Selmer style, where the boutique sector mirrors flat tops price wise.

[s2y]

Kinda depends, but woods and bracing still matter. Through trial and error I have discovered I'm not a big fan of redwood tops, ziricote, mahogany, and koa back/sides.

[printer2]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

It depends. Not all backs are thicknessed and braced the same. Some are more reflective. Some are more active. That is, they vibrate more from the energy coming from the top, while the reflective back "reflects" most of that energy back towards the top. Both backs absorbs some frequencies and reflect some others, which is why a guitar with a Rosewood back has different tonal qualities from one with Mahogany. But the active back absorbs more and reflects more, "coloring" the guitars tone more. It may also give a more 3-demensional quality to the tone.

A 'reflective' back does not have the sound waves bounce off of it, the length of the wavelengths (at least under 2 kHz) are too short to bounce off of anything. But people coined the term and we seem to be stuck with it.

Originally Posted by marciero

aka plywood. Not to be snarky- this is a viable method of construction, and the traditional method for Selmer style, where the boutique sector mirrors flat tops price wise.

And a snarky, "you need at least three slices to be plywood" where as Tim only uses two. Also, since the two are not glued together and are separated by an air space so the inner plate is allowed to vibrate freely when the outer back is pressed up against the player.

[BrunoBlack]

I think the builder and design have a huge impact.

Case in point:
#1) I ordered a custom SCGC OMG (0000 model) — Italian over Cocobolo. I worked with Richard Hoover to deliver a specific tonal profile. In rough terms, I was looking for a build that produced a tone that was dark, wet, deep, resonant with solid balance and thick trebles. It was delivered (beyond) exactly as I hoped.

#2) I ordered a custom SCGC OM - Italian over Cocobolo. Again, I worked with Richard asking him for a guitar that was less dark & wet, more of a clear balanced profile, yet having a deep bass with matching mids and highs — with a quick attack, powerful sustain, and resonant presence. It was delivered as described. I would bet if I put both guitars in an accomplished players hand, blindfolded, they would never guess it was built with exactly the same woods by the same builder.

A skilled luthier can accomplish amazing things!

[zmf]

Originally Posted by Samiamx

A.... in my limited experience I noticed Santa Cruz seems to be more sensitive to wood selection’s impact in tone that Huss and Collings (which are the only brands I’ve compared that way).

.. in my limited experience, I completely agree with you. I think Santa Cruz guitars largely have more active/less stiff backs than comparable brands, which I think makes them more intimate, somewhat more quiet guitars.

I gravitate towards their mahogany, so not much experience with other tonewoods. I'll keep your observation in mind when I get a chance to audition denser B/S tonewoods.