Baxendale Conversion Owners?

Rexsblues · #1 02-12-2019, 09:22 PM

I've been extremely impressed with the Harmony Conversion guitars coming out of Scott Baxendale's shop in Athens, GA. In particular, the 1940's spruce/hog Harmony guitars have caught my attention. I have heard it said these guitars are on par with 30's Martin OM's tone-wise. Talk like that tempts me. I'd love to hear from any owners on the forum!

Rhythmdoctor · #2 02-12-2019, 09:46 PM

I have yet to own or even play one myself but I've been eyeing these for the last several years and have been in contact with Scott numerous times both on the phone and via email. Scott is also willing to update a Harmony you find/own yourself for a set fee. I can't recall the fee at this moment but I wanna say it was around a grand. So I think for me, I'd rather find the Harmony myself, preferably one with an already good tone and send that to him for his bracing modifications.

There have been some that sound fantastic based on his instagram video posts. But that method of testing tone is inconsistent at best. Like you, OP, I'm very interested in these. I stumbled onto Scott through Mossman as I've been interested in those and briefly owned one just as recently as last year (GAS). Anyways, Scott was a Mossman, maybe even the master luthier while Stu was winding down, and IIRC he ran the company and/or bought the Mossman name at the end of Stu's life. It's been years since I discovered all of this and I'm too lazy to re-do the work now. Perhaps someone can pickup where I've left off. Bottom line: dude knows acoustic guitars and is big on tone. I think you can't really go wrong with one of them. I saw one recently on reverb for about $1,200. That's a good price for his conversions.

Rexsblues · #3 02-12-2019, 10:01 PM

Thanks for the comment! I know he has a program where cash-strapped musicians can trade six harmonys/kays in any condition, and he'll convert one for you in exchange for the other five. It's a pretty good deal considering the final product. I've considered just picking 5 random guitars that are worthy of his conversion, and then specifically picking one out for myself for him to convert.

I live in Nashville, and Athens is a bit of the drive, but i might make a weekend out of it with my wife and stop by his shop to get a lay of the land.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhythmdoctor

I have yet to own or even play one myself but I've been eyeing these for the last several years and have been in contact with Scott numerous times both on the phone and via email. Scott is also willing to update a Harmony you find/own yourself for a set fee. I can't recall the fee at this moment but I wanna say it was around a grand. So I think for me, I'd rather find the Harmony myself, preferably one with an already good tone and send that to him for his bracing modifications.

There have been some that sound fantastic based on his instagram video posts. But that method of testing tone is inconsistent at best. Like you, OP, I'm very interested in these. I stumbled onto Scott through Mossman as I've been interested in those and briefly owned one just as recently as last year (GAS). Anyways, Scott was a Mossman, maybe even the master luthier while Stu was winding down, and IIRC he ran the company and/or bought the Mossman name at the end of Stu's life. It's been years since I discovered all of this and I'm too lazy to re-do the work now. Perhaps someone can pickup where I've left off. Bottom line: dude knows acoustic guitars and is big on tone. I think you can't really go wrong with one of them. I saw one recently on reverb for about $1,200. That's a good price for his conversions.

Osage · #4 02-12-2019, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rexsblues

I've been extremely impressed with the Harmony Conversion guitars coming out of Scott Baxendale's shop in Athens, GA. In particular, the 1940's spruce/hog Harmony guitars have caught my attention. I have heard it said these guitars are on par with 30's Martin OM's tone-wise. Talk like that tempts me. I'd love to hear from any owners on the forum!

I've played two of his conversions as well as a fairly large number of 30's Martins, including OM's. The 2 Harmony's I played were well done but neither sounded anything like a vintage Martin. I'm not sure how anyone who has actually played 30's OM's would think that they do. "On par" can be really subjective but neither of the ones I played were on par with a good 30's Martin at all. Certainly not bad guitars but don't think that you're getting something that you're not.

Rexsblues · #5 02-12-2019, 10:17 PM

That claim is only made about very specific Harmonys that are more rare. 1940's "Figure 8" Harmony guitars were made with honduran mahogany and i believe red spruce. I'm sure the 60's-era Harmony guitars, which are much more abundant, are not on the same level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osage

I've played two of his conversions as well as a fairly large number of 30's Martins, including OM's. The 2 Harmony's I played were well done but neither sounded anything like a vintage Martin. I'm not sure how anyone who has actually played 30's OM's would think that they do. "On par" can be really subjective but neither of the ones I played were on par with a good 30's Martin at all. Certainly not bad guitars but don't think that you're getting something that you're not.

Osage · #6 02-13-2019, 11:49 AM

I hope you don't think I'm knocking his work, because I'm not. Both of the guitars of his I've played were nice and I'm always glad to see someone putting in the time to restore an old guitar.

That said, I've heard time and time again that guitar X compares to a 30's Martin and in virtually all cases, they don't. There are a large number of modern builders who make their living trying to get that elusive tone and very few actually nail it. Since the 80's, even Martin has been trying to do it with only varying degrees of success. You can spend a small fortune on a guitar built by TJ Thompson, Wayne Henderson or a few other builders and it'll get you to 30's Martin territory but these builders are few and far between.

Counting both electrics and acoustics, I've owned over 250 Harmony guitars. I've had them from every decade of manufacture. Rarely a week goes by that I don't work on one. I spent my morning today working on a Harmony in fact. I think they're great and have a ton of potential for modification if one chooses to go that route. I think they're still affordable and can sound quite nice. I've taken them apart and yes, there are a few models from the 40's through the 60's that have very nice wood. I also own and have played/worked on pre war Martins and the body and top wood is not just similar. Harmony used Sitka and White Spruce. Their Mahogany is not terribly well quartered and in appearance is nothing like the wood Martin was using. It's still nice aged wood for sure but not really like what Martin was using. He uses tite-bond glue and Indian Rosewood bridges, both totally good but neither are going to get you precise pre war Martin tone. I could go on and on.

Again, I'm not trying to knock his work at all. The two guitars of his I played were nice and they definitely stand on their own merit. I bet you'd be really happy with one. One of the ones I played was owned by a friend and I know he liked it a lot. Heck, I liked it a lot. It's just that saying they are on par with a 30's OM is pretty silly. I'd be shocked if he was claiming them to be. If you could really get a guitar that was just like an OM for a grand, we'd all have them. If modern builders could just whip out OM's cheap, we'd all have them. Unfortunately neither of these things are realistic.

Rexsblues · #7 02-13-2019, 11:58 AM

For anyone interested in seeing one of these higher-end conversion guitars from the 1940s, here's a quick video of Scott showing one off. Obviously the actual tone isn't captured, but it gives an idea of how good these things can sound.

https://youtu.be/2zBR9abKFi0

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rexsblues

That claim is only made about very specific Harmonys that are more rare. 1940's "Figure 8" Harmony guitars were made with honduran mahogany and i believe red spruce. I'm sure the 60's-era Harmony guitars, which are much more abundant, are not on the same level.

Osage · #8 02-13-2019, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rexsblues

For anyone interested in seeing one of these higher-end conversion guitars from the 1940s, here's a quick video of Scott showing one off. Obviously the actual tone isn't captured, but it gives an idea of how good these things can sound.

https://youtu.be/2zBR9abKFi0

Very cool guitar that sounds nothing like an OM in that video. Sounds exactly like a Harmony that's been converted to X-bracing

Monsoon1 · #9 02-13-2019, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osage

I hope you don't think I'm knocking his work, because I'm not. Both of the guitars of his I've played were nice and I'm always glad to see someone putting in the time to restore an old guitar.

That said, I've heard time and time again that guitar X compares to a 30's Martin and in virtually all cases, they don't. There are a large number of modern builders who make their living trying to get that elusive tone and very few actually nail it. Since the 80's, even Martin has been trying to do it with only varying degrees of success. You can spend a small fortune on a guitar built by TJ Thompson, Wayne Henderson or a few other builders and it'll get you to 30's Martin territory but these builders are few and far between.

Counting both electrics and acoustics, I've owned over 250 Harmony guitars. I've had them from every decade of manufacture. Rarely a week goes by that I don't work on one. I spent my morning today working on a Harmony in fact. I think they're great and have a ton of potential for modification if one chooses to go that route. I think they're still affordable and can sound quite nice. I've taken them apart and yes, there are a few models from the 40's through the 60's that have very nice wood. I also own and have played/worked on pre war Martins and the body and top wood is not just similar. Harmony used Sitka and White Spruce. Their Mahogany is not terribly well quartered and in appearance is nothing like the wood Martin was using. It's still nice aged wood for sure but not really like what Martin was using. He uses tite-bond glue and Indian Rosewood bridges, both totally good but neither are going to get you precise pre war Martin tone. I could go on and on.

Again, I'm not trying to knock his work at all. The two guitars of his I played were nice and they definitely stand on their own merit. I bet you'd be really happy with one. One of the ones I played was owned by a friend and I know he liked it a lot. Heck, I liked it a lot. It's just that saying they are on par with a 30's OM is pretty silly. I'd be shocked if he was claiming them to be. If you could really get a guitar that was just like an OM for a grand, we'd all have them. If modern builders could just whip out OM's cheap, we'd all have them. Unfortunately neither of these things are realistic.

I've seen Alan Carruth discuss how important quarter sawn wood is, and how even just 10 degrees off will be measurably less stiff. So I can understand what you're saying.
But surely SOME of the Harmony guitars had to have left the factory with perfectly quartered wood?

H165 · #10 02-13-2019, 03:50 PM

As you all might guess, I like the H165.

I've X-braced and modified solid wood 000 and SJ ("figure 8") size Harmonys for years. The H162s are probably the subject of most discussions like this. Spruce over mahogany 000 or SJ, dovetail, fixed or adjustable neck reinforcement (depending on the year). Differing bridge plates, also depending on the year.

After modding a few, I decided I could get good results with the H162. It generally has good wood. Sometimes outstanding. It can be made into a VERY good mahogany/spruce guitar. Comparing a well-modded H162 to an old OM-18 is subjective. I have a '31 OM-18, which is fairly good for direct comparison (however, the scale is different, complicating the comparison). If you want to form an educated opinion, blind testing is the only way to do it. The reason I stopped doing the H162s is that there are ZILLIONS of similar guitars. The spruce over mahogany 000 and SJ models exist throughout vintage guitar "golden era" history. The only non-testing argument that can be reasonably discussed is the little matter of about $30,000 difference between a nice old OM-18 and a real good H162 resto-mod. Also, I take my Harmonys everywhere; I take my OM almost nowhere.

However, the H165 (and variations like the H161, etc), an all-mahogany 000 or SJ, is sort of a "missing link" filler for a vintage 000 guitar that doesn't much exist elsewhere in the vintage world. Longworth cites the only Martins fitting this description (000-17) in his first book, but it is now widely believed that this is an error in the book, not an accurate documentation. If any of Longworth's 000-17s actually exist, 100% have been lost or not yet re-discovered (request and welcome any updates on this subject). Other makers produced a few all-mahogany 000s and SJs, but they are few and far between.

So, I like H165s. All-mahogany has a distinctive sound, to me. I have X-braced them, modified existing bracing in them, and even restored a few that had the very unusual benefit of a decent bridge plate.

The vast majority of H162 and H165 guitars have full-width bridge plates - a real tone-killer in every one I've encountered. 100% of both models have one too many back braces, and the braces not directly visible are left rough-cut. So far, 100% of the non-adjustable necks have needed a re-glue of the neck reinforcement bar and a neck reset.

Martin got wise to the "missing link" anomaly a few years ago, and now there are a bunch of variations on the theme of "all-mahogany Martin 000" out there. It might be argued that Gibson has the all-mahogany SJ style covered (would welcome more info and opinions on this).

If you buy a well-modded and X-braced 000-size H162, it WILL sound and feel close to a raft of existing Martins, both vintage and modern. OTOH, a modded H165 might be described as a vintage 00-17 on steroids, which has turned out to be my preference. I play my heavily-modded H165 every day.

Osage · #11 02-13-2019, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monsoon1

I've seen Alan Carruth discuss how important quarter sawn wood is, and how even just 10 degrees off will be measurably less stiff. So I can understand what you're saying.
But surely SOME of the Harmony guitars had to have left the factory with perfectly quartered wood?

Oh definitely some of them were perfectly quartered but their tolerance for less than perfect wood was much looser than Martin, Gibson, etc.... You can also see a ton of grain runout on the old Harmony's. Also, while you certainly see lesser quality wood on the cheaper models, I find little difference in the average quality of the wood used from 1945-1970 on the higher end models.

Again, I'm not knocking Harmony's here. I think they can be great, even with their faults. I build/repair/buy and sell guitars for a living and I always try to keep a good fixed up Harmony in the shop for when someone local wants a good guitar for not a lot of money. From where I'm sitting right now I can see five different Harmony's.

Monsoon1 · #12 02-13-2019, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H165

As you all might guess, I like the H165.

I've X-braced and modified solid wood 000 and SJ ("figure 8") size Harmonys for years. The H162s are probably the subject of most discussions like this. Spruce over mahogany 000 or SJ, dovetail, fixed or adjustable neck reinforcement (depending on the year). Differing bridge plates, also depending on the year.

After modding a few, I decided I could get good results with the H162. It generally has good wood. Sometimes outstanding. It can be made into a VERY good mahogany/spruce guitar. Comparing a well-modded H162 to an old OM-18 is subjective. I have a '31 OM-18, which is fairly good for direct comparison (however, the scale is different, complicating the comparison). If you want to form an educated opinion, blind testing is the only way to do it. The reason I stopped doing the H162s is that there are ZILLIONS of similar guitars. The spruce over mahogany 000 and SJ models exist throughout vintage guitar "golden era" history. The only non-testing argument that can be reasonably discussed is the little matter of about $30,000 difference between a nice old OM-18 and a real good H162 resto-mod. Also, I take my Harmonys everywhere; I take my OM almost nowhere.

However, the H165 (and variations like the H161, etc), an all-mahogany 000 or SJ, is sort of a "missing link" filler for a vintage 000 guitar that doesn't much exist elsewhere in the vintage world. Longworth cites the only Martins fitting this description (000-17) in his first book, but it is now widely believed that this is an error in the book, not an accurate documentation. If any of Longworth's 000-17s actually exist, 100% have been lost or not yet re-discovered (request and welcome any updates on this subject). Other makers produced a few all-mahogany 000s and SJs, but they are few and far between.

So, I like H165s. All-mahogany has a distinctive sound, to me. I have X-braced them, modified existing bracing in them, and even restored a few that had the very unusual benefit of a decent bridge plate.

The vast majority of H162 and H165 guitars have full-width bridge plates - a real tone-killer in every one I've encountered. 100% of both models have one too many back braces, and the braces not directly visible are left rough-cut. So far, 100% of the non-adjustable necks have needed a re-glue of the neck reinforcement bar and a neck reset.

Martin got wise to the "missing link" anomaly a few years ago, and now there are a bunch of variations on the theme of "all-mahogany Martin 000" out there. It might be argued that Gibson has the all-mahogany SJ style covered (would welcome more info and opinions on this).

If you buy a well-modded and X-braced 000-size H162, it WILL sound and feel close to a raft of existing Martins, both vintage and modern. OTOH, a modded H165 might be described as a vintage 00-17 on steroids, which has turned out to be my preference. I play my heavily-modded H165 every day.

Good stuff, thanks for posting that.

gfirob · #13 02-13-2019, 04:15 PM

There is another guy in Maryland that mods old Harmonies:
http://moonlightluthiers.com/

And his website has a lot of interesting pictures that would be of use to diy efforts, I think.

I have a good friend whose father used to run the Harmony factory when he was a kid and who worked in the plant as a teenager. His description of the company, the quality of the workers and training, and the bottom line mentality of the management suggest that this was nothing like the Martin Guitar factory of the same or earlier vintage. It was probably a higher quality wood shop than one making packing crates, but only just.

A Harmony is probably a good basic upgrade project, and maybe you can get it into the range of a low end Gibson, but Harmonys were always at the bottom of the barrel as far as construction care and workmanship, even the good ones, IMHO.

Rexsblues · #14 02-13-2019, 04:16 PM

Thanks for the responses, guys! I’d still love to hear from Baxendale owners, but the conversation is interesting. I think it is silly to say something is a 1 to 1 of a 30s Martin, but if it’s possible to get something with comparable tone at a lower price, I think that’s intriguing. Mostly, I love the concept of what Scott is doing. I think these old guitars are cool, and the work he does makes them even cooler. Maybe they aren’t pre-war Martins, but they’re pretty cool in their own right.

Monsoon1 · #15 02-13-2019, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osage

Oh definitely some of them were perfectly quartered but their tolerance for less than perfect wood was much looser than Martin, Gibson, etc.... You can also see a ton of grain runout on the old Harmony's. Also, while you certainly see lesser quality wood on the cheaper models, I find little difference in the average quality of the wood used from 1945-1970 on the higher end models.

Again, I'm not knocking Harmony's here. I think they can be great, even with their faults. I build/repair/buy and sell guitars for a living and I always try to keep a good fixed up Harmony in the shop for when someone local wants a good guitar for not a lot of money. From where I'm sitting right now I can see five different Harmony's.

Just curious, was there ever a rosewood back and sides Harmony?