Classical with truss rod?

[steam boat]

I'm contemplating on getting a decent classical around $1000-$1500 but spending that much on a guitar without a truss rod scares the hell out of me. Am I crazy? What should I know about this phenomenon in the classical guitar world? What models use truss rods in this range.

For full disclosure, I'm a classical noob.

[Vyse Hazuky]

Guitars by Cordoba and Camps usually have truss rods. Other builders usually reinforce the neck with ebony strips.

afaik, nylon-strings don't exert as much tension as steel strings, hence why most classical guitar builders haven't felt the need to incorporate this feature, I imagine..

[sirwhale]

Cheaper Camps have a truss rod, but that metal rod makes the neck heavy compared to a properly and lightly built flamenco or classical guitar body.

The medium to higher range Camps guitars have a carbon fibre rod, which is much much stronger than the strips of ebony, and much lighter. My guitar neck is not going to move, and I'm very happy about that.

[zavaletas]

Better classical guitars don't need trust rods. The cheap models of those that do, usually need them because of the inferior qualities of woods being used for the neck.

[Dave T]

Originally Posted by zavaletas

Better classical guitars don't need trust rods. The cheap models of those that do, usually need them because of the inferior qualities of woods being used for the neck.

What he said!

Dave

[hesson11]

Aside from the question of a "need" for a truss rod is also the question of personal preference in setting neck relief. I much prefer having that option because hand problems require fairly careful setup for me.

Kenny Hill's guitars have truss rods, and he's one of the world's most respected luthiers. His New World line of less-expensive, Chinese-made guitars also have truss rods, as do Cordoba guitars, which Kenny has been involved with in design and manufacturing operations, I believe. I think Guitar Center's line of Lucero guitars also have truss rods. These are very inexpensive guitars. I've played a couple and didn't expect much, only to be pleasantly surprised by their high value.

To equate truss rods only with "cheap guitars" is a mistake.
-Bob

[tkoehler1]

Originally Posted by zavaletas

Better classical guitars don't need trust rods. The cheap models of those that do, usually need them because of the inferior qualities of woods being used for the neck.

I'm sorry I respectfully don't believe this is true. I don't know why people think this way, perhaps it's tradition (Torres didn't do it) or some other reason.

I have 1968 Kohno, made by the master, and it is approaching the end of it's useful life. The neck has moved upwards since it was built, and the saddle has been lowered to the minimum height as a result. If it keeps moving it will need it's neck reset by a luthier.

Thankfully it has a dovetail neck joint, much easier to work with than the common Spanish heel, which is very difficult.

While the primary reason for a truss rod is to adjust the relief in the neck for playability reasons, having a truss rod can extend the life of a classical guitar by decades. It gives you a way to move the neck back when it starts creeping forward.

Yes they are a little bit heavy, but not overly so. A good double action truss rod is about 100 grams (Hot Rod @ StewMac) and titanium ones are even less.

You can't tell me that Marasu Kohno didn't know what he was doing when he made my guitar. It's a quality guitar, and the neck has just bowed upwards a bit over time. Happens to a lot of instruments. Just check any DelCamp discussion about any vintage classical. The first thing they talk about is the height of the action and how much saddle is left.

I actually think the higher quality classical guitars should be the ones with truss rods, simply because they will be the ones that will still be around 50+ years from now and thus the most likely to need it.

I'm not trying to quibble with posters like zavaletas. He has far more expertise and experience than myself. Rather I'm trying to convince him. If the dealers can be convinced then perhaps the builders will start responding.

Whew anyway rant over

[sirwhale]

I would also say that I'm not sure that there are different reliefs for different playing styles. I've seen measurements where there is always one setting that is best for guitar playing irrespective of style.

For example: http://www.bryankimsey.com/setup/neck_relief_1.htm

If the guitar is made properly, if the relief is set appropriately, then a carbon fibre rod should keep it there.

But I also agree that a truss rod or a carbon fibre rod, but I personally wouldn't want a guitar without.

[zhunter]

First there are three real categories:

No truss rod
Non-adjustable truss rod
Adjustable truss rod

I have nylon string guitars in all categories, including non-adjustable truss rods made of ebony or carbon fiber. The only nylon string guitar I own that has ever needed a truss rod adjustment is the guitar with the adjustable truss rod. The oldest is going on 10 years, was the cheapest, has no truss rod at all and has no neck movement.

If a neck is going to twist truss rod does not matter. If a top is going to rise, or neck rotate (maybe not a concern with Spanish foot?), the truss rod does not matter. Only neck bow is affected. Can't say it won't happen but I have been happy with the performance of necks without any rod at all as well as the carbon and ebony rod reinforced necks.

Absence of an adjustable truss rod doesn't affect my nylon string guitar choice.

hunter

[GolfSteve]

I built a classical guitar and included a truss rod because I was not 100% sure I would get the neck relief correct and thought the insurance of a truss rod was worth it.

I did, however, get the neck relief correct, and 7 years later I have yet to touch the truss rod. I cannot see any instance in the future where it might be needed as long as I keep the guitar properly humidified.

So, inspect the guitar and ensure the neck relief is correct before buying and then I don't think a truss rod is needed.

I also think a truss rod does not hurt anything (e.g. sound quality) or noticeably affect weight/balance.

I used to play a steel string guitar, and I would adjust the truss rod twice a year. The playability of a steel string guitar is much more sensitive to action than a nylon string guitar is. The relatively high action of the nylon string guitar means that truss rod adjustments are not that effective.

[dkstott]

I personally wouldn't own any guitar that didn't have a truss rod.

I also make small tweaks on the truss rod to make small relief adjustments when the season's change here in New England.

[zhunter]

Originally Posted by dkstott

I personally wouldn't own any guitar that didn't have a truss rod.

I also make small tweaks on the truss rod to make small relief adjustments when the season's change here in New England.

I gather from your comment, you mean adjustable truss rod. I appreciate your position and, at the same time, note that position would kick many of the finest nylon string guitars in the world to the curb.

hunter

[steam boat]

Thanks for all the replies guys. Considering my price range, I'm leaning towards an adjustable truss rod.

[MinorKey]

I thought that a truss rod was for steel string guitars and that only cheap classicals use the device. My classical is a very cheap model (Jose Ferrer) and it has a truss rod, accessible by the sound hole. I thought it really odd that a classical would have a truss rod!

[Red_Label]

Wow.... there are some interesting opinions in this thread. It's pretty easy to tell those with a breadth of experience and those without.

No... a well made classical does not NEED an adjustable truss rod. But for the life of me I don't understand the sentiment that you will never feel the desire to make a small adjustment on the relief of your guitars neck. Changes in temp and humidity affect the wood in a guitar neck and the soundboard, where the bridge is located.

I also don't understand the post above regarding a perfect, optimal string action for classical and one for flamenco. That's absurd. Different players prefer different actions. I like mine very low, so I set saddle height and neck relief accordingly. I've played and gigged every style of acoustic and electric guitar, in every musical genre over the past 34 years. There is no "perfect" setup for all.

P.S. I've owned many acoustic instruments up to the $5K range. In my opinion no one can touch Cordoba in the sub $2K market for classicals and flamencos. It's why I've owned 12 of them. Some of which I preferred to $4K instruments that I owned. Many times spendin more won't get you a nicer playing/sounding instrument, it will just get you nicer woods and appointments by a smaller, more prestigious builder. The amount of gains one sees from $1K - $2K FAR exceed the gains that come after that. There are exceptions, but having worked in music stores that sell all levels of instruments and had every different type of instrument coming and going has been the driving force behind my opinion.

My local shop has not been a Cordoba dealer, so after years of watching me get my nylon strung instruments from Cordoba, they've finally gotten with the program and made their first order.