RX7 & De-Bleed

[amsmarle]

Hi All,
I record vocal & play acoustic guitar at the same time... recorded into 2 separate tracks (acoustic is plugged direct. So I do get acoustic bleed into my vocal mic. I'm wondering if anyone has had success using RX7's De-Bleed module to minimise the acoustic bleed or anything else can reduce this problem, besides recording them independently of course

Thanks for any advice

Alan

[JayBee1404]

I guess this won't be helpful, but I record guitar and vocal separately - I find that's the way to maximise performance-quality of both elements and, of course, no bleed!

Also, I use two small-diaphragm condenser mics to record the guitar, which allows tweaks between the tracks to get different tonal effects.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

[NotALuth]

Hi Alan,

Without knowing more about your recording setup all I can offer is a few options which may, or may not, be relevant.

I have no direct experience with RX7 De-bleed but assume it works as many ‘noise’ cancelling systems do by taking the noise source signal (guitar in this instance) inverting it’s phase and then mixing it back into the “contaminated” signal (vocal). With a good source of the noise signal (d.i. guitar, although this will not be an exact copy of the guitar recorded through the mic) I would expect this to work quite well. I notice their are a number of YouTube videos on it’s use which may save you a bunch of time experimenting.

Alternatives:

Depending on your guitar’s pickup type (piezo/magnetic/internal mic or mixture) and pre-amp location you could try using a soundhole ‘feedback buster’. This will significantly reduce, but not eliminate,the volume of guitar reaching the mic and may be enough to solve the issue. Remember not to listen to the vocal track on its own too much when deciding this, it’s whether there is a problem when the vocal is mixed with guitar that you should worry about (there are many famous records that when individual tracks are listened to in isolation you can find plenty of fault with but when listened to in a mix you don’t notice them even when you know they are there!).

You could try using an acoustic diffuser/deflector in between the guitar and the mic. How big and how near/far from the mic this needs to be will depend on the type of mic used (dynamic/condenser), it’s polar response, and the relative distances of your mouth and the guitars soundhole from the mic ( do you record standing/sitting, sing close to the mic or a few feet back etc.) it doesn’t have to be anything fancy you can just DIY it, you are just trying to block the direct signal from the soundhole to the area of the mic that picks up sound. Please, please though mount anything you use securely- I would hate my suggestions to result in anything falling on your guitar!!!

EQ: do you apply eq on your vocal during tracking? You may be able to eliminate some of the bleed at this stage without affecting your vocal, depending on your vocal range and size/tonality of your guitar. Try experimenting.

Finally, a mixture of the above.

Hope that given you some useful ideas. I am sure others will chime in with other/ better ones.

Good luck, and all the best,
Clive.

[amsmarle]

Originally Posted by JayBee1404

I guess this won't be helpful, but I record guitar and vocal separately - I find that's the way to maximise performance-quality of both elements and, of course, no bleed!

Also, I use two small-diaphragm condenser mics to record the guitar, which allows tweaks between the tracks to get different tonal effects.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

Thanks JatBee, as I said not an option for me, wish I could record separately.
Alan

[amsmarle]

Originally Posted by NotALuth

Hi Alan,

Without knowing more about your recording setup all I can offer is a few options which may, or may not, be relevant.

I have no direct experience with RX7 De-bleed but assume it works as many ‘noise’ cancelling systems do by taking the noise source signal (guitar in this instance) inverting it’s phase and then mixing it back into the “contaminated” signal (vocal). With a good source of the noise signal (d.i. guitar, although this will not be an exact copy of the guitar recorded through the mic) I would expect this to work quite well. I notice their are a number of YouTube videos on it’s use which may save you a bunch of time experimenting.

Alternatives:

Depending on your guitar’s pickup type (piezo/magnetic/internal mic or mixture) and pre-amp location you could try using a soundhole ‘feedback buster’. This will significantly reduce, but not eliminate,the volume of guitar reaching the mic and may be enough to solve the issue. Remember not to listen to the vocal track on its own too much when deciding this, it’s whether there is a problem when the vocal is mixed with guitar that you should worry about (there are many famous records that when individual tracks are listened to in isolation you can find plenty of fault with but when listened to in a mix you don’t notice them even when you know they are there!).

You could try using an acoustic diffuser/deflector in between the guitar and the mic. How big and how near/far from the mic this needs to be will depend on the type of mic used (dynamic/condenser), it’s polar response, and the relative distances of your mouth and the guitars soundhole from the mic ( do you record standing/sitting, sing close to the mic or a few feet back etc.) it doesn’t have to be anything fancy you can just DIY it, you are just trying to block the direct signal from the soundhole to the area of the mic that picks up sound. Please, please though mount anything you use securely- I would hate my suggestions to result in anything falling on your guitar!!!

EQ: do you apply eq on your vocal during tracking? You may be able to eliminate some of the bleed at this stage without affecting your vocal, depending on your vocal range and size/tonality of your guitar. Try experimenting.

Finally, a mixture of the above.

Hope that given you some useful ideas. I am sure others will chime in with other/ better ones.

Good luck, and all the best,
Clive.

Hi Clive, Thanks for you response, Using the de-bleed does work, but in RX7 have found a new module called 'Music Re-balance' that removes all back ground and leaves the vocal with brief trial it seems to work.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by amsmarle

Hi All,
I record vocal & play acoustic guitar at the same time... recorded into 2 separate tracks (acoustic is plugged direct. So I do get acoustic bleed into my vocal mic. I'm wondering if anyone has had success using RX7's De-Bleed module to minimise the acoustic bleed or anything else can reduce this problem, besides recording them independently of course

Thanks for any advice

Alan

Have not tried De-Bleed but the trick is with any noise reduction or gate is finding that compromise between some reduction of the element you wish to reduce (guitar beed) but also reducing the voca,l which you really do not want to reduce.
But to back up,,,, bleed itself is not necessarily a bad thing . Yes it can make distinction harder but it often actually helps with having more of a live feel.
That said there are a few things you can also do in mixing.
EQ if you have a multi band EQ plugin with adjustable Q you can use one on each track (set differently) to make a cut and carve out a different space for each. For example you might do a moderate Q cut at say 2000 k hz on the guitar and a moderate Q cut at 500hz on the vocal
Also you could use a compressor on each track after the EQ so its compression is also de-emphasized in the area of the EQ cuts

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by amsmarle

Hi All,
I record vocal & play acoustic guitar at the same time... recorded into 2 separate tracks (acoustic is plugged direct. So I do get acoustic bleed into my vocal mic. I'm wondering if anyone has had success using RX7's De-Bleed module to minimise the acoustic bleed or anything else can reduce this problem, besides recording them independently of course

Thanks for any advice

Alan

You're always going to get bleed to some degree. And you don't say what kind of mic you're using. But big condensers, while "cardioid," aren't generally all that directional. So you want the live side to favor your vocal as much as possible, even if the mic winds up in an odd-looking position.

What you don't want is a lifetime of only being able to make tolerable recordings by using a "smart-gate."

[Gordon Currie]

RX7's De-Bleed is like a spot stain remover.

You use it when you have an issue, and only sparingly, isolated to the area in concern. Because it can cause it's own problems (generally considered a trade-off).

Using RX7 for all your recordings is like using spot remover for laundry detergent. You may end up wondering where all the colors went.

[amsmarle]

Hi Again to all, thanks for your replies.

My vocal is a M-Audio Solaris multi patter condenser which I use on fig 8 pattern. This does help with the acoustic bleed. I will keep experimenting with mic positioning and RX 7 De-Bleed and Music re-balance, but as you have all explained there really seems to be no alternative to recording independent tracks i.e. Acoustic/Vocal

Regards
Alan

[Ty Ford]

Sorry, what does it matter if there's some bleed?

Millions of recordings have been made with X, Y or Z amounts of bleed?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[amsmarle]

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

Sorry, what does it matter if there's some bleed?

Millions of recordings have been made with X, Y or Z amounts of bleed?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Hello Ty,
I am just a novice, but I am deaf and need headphones all the while to record my tracks and do my mixing, I find that the acoustic bleed sometimes impedes my ability to use say EQ etc. I have found that when I have actually managed to record a vocal and acoustic separately that mixing the cleaner vocal is easier for me to determine what is actually happening within the vocal track. I'm aware that the bleed can add something more good or bad mostly its not too bad. But I thought I would ask the question here

Regards
Alan

[Ty Ford]

Hello Alan,

Of course you're right about certain amounts of EQ for different tracks. If you could get guitar and voice sorted out, also consider using only one mic.

I've found that using one about nose or brow high angled down slightly to catch both my voice and guitar can work quite well.

Do you have any samples that we could hear?

Regards,

Ty Ford

[amsmarle]

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

Hello Alan,

Of course you're right about certain amounts of EQ for different tracks. If you could get guitar and voice sorted out, also consider using only one mic.

I've found that using one about nose or brow high angled down slightly to catch both my voice and guitar can work quite well.

Do you have any samples that we could hear?

Regards,

Ty Ford

Hello Ty,
I will experiment with one mic and see how I go on, I can see that finding the sweet spot between vocal and guitar would be a possible option, not sure it would help me with mixing the dual track though.
I consider my recordings are novice level and not anyway suitable for uploading

Thanks for reply

Alan

[Ty Ford]

Alan,

I get that your situation is very different, but without some sort of feedback, progress is nigh on to impossible. How about you send me a track? and mp3 or if all you have is a wav or aiff, send it to me via the free wetransfer.com service.

My email address is tyford AT tyford.com

Regards,

Ty

[amsmarle]

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

Alan,

I get that your situation is very different, but without some sort of feedback, progress is nigh on to impossible. How about you send me a track? and mp3 or if all you have is a wav or aiff, send it to me via the free wetransfer.com service.

My email address is tyford AT tyford.com

Regards,

Ty

OK Ty fair comment, I will try and send you some files and thanks for your help

Regards
Alan