Lightly built guitars lacking bass??

[6ixxer]

So here is something I have noticed for a long time playing different acoustic guitars, and I'm only talking about only dreadnought body style for this case. What I'm specifically referring to is the bass depth/fullness on the low E and sometimes A string.

The past few years I have sought out guitar shops within a few hours driving distance of me, who carry brands other than Martin and Taylor. I have a very specific sound I like to get out of a dreadnought and currently own a Larrivee D-40R which gives me the sound I enjoy hearing. I have to say I am kind of disappointed in the depth of bass in brands such as Collings, Huss and Dalton, Wilborn (only played one Wilborn which I bought and returned) and similar brands. All the dreadnoughts in these brands are pretty lightweight and appear to be lightly braced for responsiveness. Which they definitely are responsive and sound great on the D through high E strings. What I am dissatisfied in is the lack of deep bass in the low E and kind of in the A string. Not that there isn't any bass response, it just isn't as deep, full, and "chuggy" sounding as I like hearing. I have come away from playing all these more boutique brand guitars a little disappointed in not being able to get the sound I want. One guitar I was very much looking forward to playing was the Santa Cruz Tony Rice dreadnought. I thought for sure it was going to be the perfect guitar, but I was surprised how uninspiring it was to play, and being a dreadnought, I'm focusing mostly on the lower end sound. Now it had strings on it that were old and blah, but I have found old or new strings don't matter in the true tone of the guitar. To me anyway. So a set of new strings would have sounded much better, but overall it still was lacking to my ear.

I have owned several Martins and while not every Martin dreadnought has the bass I like, it's more common than not. One example is the D-28 vs HD-28V. The D-28 to me sounds thin and gutless while the HD-28V has that full deep sound that I love so much. I understand the bracing differences between these two guitars btw. Another example is I owned a Taylor 410e-R prototype that had great depth of bass and I found every 810 I played lacked what the 410 had on the low E. I had a D-15 Custom with Mahogany/Sitka and DSR Rosewood/Sitka which are both lower end Martins but to me had that bass response those lighlty built higher end guitars didn't have.

My current Larrivee D-40R has lots of "chuggy" deep bass and I love it. What I'm trying to find out is what exactly is it that determines that bass response. I know it has mostly to do with bracing, but what exactly is it with the bracing that gives or doesnt give what I like hearing? You could say heavier bracing, but the D-28 is more heavily braced than the HD-28V (non scalloped vs scalloped), so it cant be that. It can't be the scalloping because all those boutique guitars definitely are scalloped too and lack bass response. The only thing I can think of is the position of the X brace on the soundboard?? I haven't compared the position of the X on my Larrivee D-40R to the HD-28V but I'd guess it would be pretty similar.

So any thoughts are welcome and any ideas or knowledge on the subject as well.

Thanks guys!

[AndrewG]

Much will depend on how the guitar is voiced; many builders, Taylor and Faith for example, lean toward a more 'modern' tone that is much brighter overall than what we expect from a more 'traditional' instrument, and many players prefer that. Of course we should also mention relative humidity which will have a huge influence on the tone produced at any given time, and this will vary throughout a typical year-even daily for especially sensitive instruments.
That said inherent tone can vary immensely; I owned an '84 D-28 which was very bright and a bit anaemic in the lower registers, but my next D-28 (I think it was an '02), was far more balanced, overall.
My D-18 has all the deep, controlled bass I could ask for but it's never 'boomy' or 'flubby' (to use two non-musical terms), as rosewood can be, and I think that after decades of owning only rosewood-body guitars, mahogany is where I feel most comfortable.

[Mbroady]

I’m also a fan of a deep warm low end. It’s a must have in any guitar I have purchased. My Furch guitars are a light build and have a real deep low end.
But In addition to that deep low end they have tonal clarity, a good response time, sustain and sound-consistency across different keys. This is something that is sometimes (but not always) sacrificed for that deep low end.

Though all parts of the guitar contribute to its tonality, its the top wood (and bracing) that contributes the most to its sound. And being a naturally grown product there will be variances from tree to tree.

I do feel that some guitars have an emergent property were the whole is sometimes greater then the sum of all its parts. This is what makes some guitars special. It’s one of the reasons to try before you buy, or for having a good return policy. You just never know what your going to get.

[Perchman]

My J35 is extremely light but has the bass that I also crave. I’ve only played one Collings, a CJ and it wasn’t lacking in bass but also wasn’t a rumbler either. Balanced is the term I suppose. But my D55, extremely heavy build, is a monster.

[J Patrick]

...I can’t say my own experiences line up with yours....I have owned Dreadnoughts by most of the makers you mention...never heard of Wilborn...and I have never actually owned a Collings....decreased..bass response has had no relationship to brand or lightness of build....and I have a Santa Cruz Tony Rice that has plenty of low end and is a loud full sounding instrument despite the enlarged sound hole....it’s not a guitar that was designed to exhibit huge low end but it’s certainly adequate and compares favorably in that regard to most Dreadnoughts I have played...

...not saying you don’t hear what you hear...just saying that has not been my experience with owning and playing a number of lightly built dreadnoughts by various builders...

...as far as what creates the big bottom end on a Dreadnought...I have found that a light build is more likely to produce that....probably because overall build quality is better....but also because I find that lightly built and braced guitars just have more of everything.....and I find that 12 fret slope shoulder dreadnought designs are the fullest sounding of all...

[printer2]

I do not have a lot of experience but I will give what I got. I built a 0 sized walnut top B&S's but with a wood that was as dense as rosewood for the neck. The guitar was lightly built, the top was around 0.085". But it had a solid bottom end that sustained quite well. I attribute some of that to the mass of the neck.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by 6ixxer

…So any thoughts are welcome and any ideas or knowledge on the subject as well.

Thanks guys!

Hi 6-er…

I think you have a particular profile in mind for bass connected with any acoustic dreadnought you are going to own.

My 1993 Olson Dreadnought (a rarity) EIR/Cedar would likely be to your liking. So would a bunch of Lowden guitars I've played, and some of the Ryan guitars I've played. I also played a Wingert with more-than-ample low end at the 2005 Healdsburg guitar show.

And I've played a Kinard which fits your description (but it was not a dread). I'm not sure what they would have called it, but I'd have called it Small Jumbo size.

Strong, but not overbearing or muddy bass, is a limited commodity (I hear a lot of muddy bottom on many Martin Dreadnoughts). It also matters whether one finger styles or flat picks.

I believe there are makers who could build you what you are asking for. If lack of bass has been a disqualifier for you then places which carry a large number of previously owned high end guitars would likely be worth the plane ticket. Guitar Gallery (guitargal.com), or DreamGuitars (dream guitars.com) for instance. Both understand what people are looking for, and stock a better than average inventory of high end formerly owned acoustic instruments.

Point to consider…
Someone here referred to their guitar being light (as in it weighs less than others) but that is not the indicator of a light build, nor does it necessarily mean that's why the guitar has the tonal characteristics it exhibits.

Lightly built refers to custom thickness (thinness actually) of the top/back/sides, and light bracing which is strategically and intentionally constructed. I played a lightly built ebony backed OM which weighs about ½ again more than my Dreadnought, but it was every bit as lively and had amazing bass (Ebony is heavier than East Indian Rosewood). So it was a 'heavy' yet 'lightly-built' guitar. I've never played a lightly-built manufactured guitar which was not altered post-factory by a luthier.

Hope you enjoy your search…

[justonwo]

I think even builders have a tough time boiling down the influence of a single variable in the ultimate tone of their guitars. So there probably isn’t one variable like brace height to explain what you’re hearing. Even among builders known for their consistency, the amount of bass can change from guitar to guitar even using the same recipe.

Regardless, you like what you like and I know sometimes it can be difficult to find exactly what you hear in your head. Just keep playing as many as you can get your hands on until you can find “the one.”

[Jaden]

Do you believe in new guitars ‘opening up’ and developing in tone over time playing it in?

Whenever I pick up a new guitar to try it out in store I expect it to be a little tight. If it’s new and the bass is ‘fat’ and ‘wide’, expansive and spreading out over the frequency range of the instrument, that wouldn’t appeal to me. I look for bass that is defined, ‘vertically deep’ and precise on a new instrument.

[6L6]

You would like a Martin '37 D-28A Authentic. But be sure you like the big neck.

[tadol]

Don’t confuse a light guitar with a lightly-built guitar - and every builder bas a different tonal & balance goal. Without knowing what or how you play, or what you consider a “balanced” sound, anyones opinion is based entirely on what they have or like. The SC Tony Rice doesn’t have a strong or boomy bass - thats not what he wanted. But SC has a number of different dreads, which have different EQ curves. Fine tuning the EQ curve is one of their specialties. There are a lot of builders, and alot of models, so you can find a guitar that works really well for you - but you’ll have to spend some time looking -

[AcousticDreams]

Hey 6ixxer, Enjoying you thread as I own two Larrivee D40's...A rosewood and a walnut. Both have fantastic Low end!

Of course there is no such thing as a best guitar...only best for our needs. And that is the Key. Like yourself, I have also played a number of high end guitars. There are other guitars that have a great low end...but none that give you that, at the Incredible Larrivee price and quality. Larrivee's are super consistent in there sound.

With that being said, the 40 series is quite a bit different in is bracing. There is no comparison in the low end between the standard series and the 40 series.

Here is what Larrivee on his website says about the 40 series bracing:
"The revolutionary new 40 Series features our "Scalloped Parabolic Hybrid" bracing system design."

"Based on our tried and true "X-Brace" design, Jean blended a non-symmetrical scalloped lateral cross-bracing pattern with our standard X-Brace. This means maximum strength using the least amount of material. It's a build that allows even further vibration of the soundboard, while still offering a controlled bass response."

I would assume that since you are still auditioning other guitars, that there is still something "MORE? that you are searching for. I would tell you that the "More" you are searching for can be obtained through little modifications. You will be pleasantly surprised and how much different little changes can make.

I will P.M you with changes I have done, that make enough of a difference for others to take notice to when they hear my guitar.

[Malcolm Kindnes]

Originally Posted by 6L6

You would like a Martin '37 D-28A Authentic. But be sure you like the big neck.

I agree, a superb guitar and I love the neck.

[Tim McKnight]

Bass response is largely, but not solely, controlled by the back of the guitar. Something that many inexperienced builders haven’t quite figured out yet. Of the guitars that you mentioned, I would venture to speculate that they were not custom built for any one individual but rather built to their median engineered spec which is more than likely a balanced guitar from bass to treble. It’s not difficult to build a guitar with all the bass that you want but it all begins by a thorough interview of the player to whom the guitar is built and voiced for. What your looking for might be like looking for a needle in a hay stack. You might want to reach out to some of the builders who sponsor this forum as a place to start.

[vindibona1]

Light weight in itself doesn't necessarily mean lack of bass. My 814ceDLX is very light and has plenty of bass as does it's sister the 814ce (x brace... not V).

One brand cited is Collings. To use Collings as an example, the guitars in general tend to be balanced and articulate. Sometimes one perceives lack of bass as the inverse of having more pronounced mids and highs. The bass still exists, but sometimes it is eclipsed by the other tones.