IR experiments - Wetness, distant feel problem

[Peter Z]

I agree, better mics didn’t help. I just wanted to say, I tried what I could.
What helped a bit was a good eq while creating the wavemap. First I made a wavemap without eq, recorded that and applied the eq and then recreated the wavemap with the eq in the chain. But still I haven’t been satisfied with the sound on a louder PA.

Fishman and James May created fascinating tools and I’m pretty sure this is the future. Maybe a few updates is all what is needed - maybe with Cukis help!

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by Peter Z

- maybe with Cukis help!

I am not sure they need any help from me. They are professionals, I am a hobbyist!

[phcorrigan]

Originally Posted by shufflebeat

Obviously our expectations and requirements are likely to be very different but all my "better" mics made less satisfying W/Ms, the most effective has been a humble sm57 at the neck join with the soundhole plugged during training.

My last mic purchase was a Slate ML2 which, on paper, is ideal for the job but still comes second to the '57.

In one video Mollie Tuttle said she liked the SM57 for training as well. So far my best wave maps were made with a Behringer ECM8000 measurement mic, which appears to be identical to a number of other measurement mics, most at higher prices.

[martingitdave]

As a tester of some of Cuki's original IR solutions, I can say I agree with his comments about the distant sound of certain IR solutions. I would argue that so do Fishman and James May. In both cases the IR is processed to allow the user to remove the "full effect" with either a control knob, algorithm, or both.

I'm in the camp that believes that what works in a small room for testing, will likely not work on a stage. For an extreme example, I remember the first big gig I did with Fishman Aura Plus in a Martin HD-28E Retro. That system had the ability to get the full effect from 0-100%. I was playing a concert in a minor league baseball stadium with a huge professional sound installation. I tried using the Aura image at full and it was a mess. I tried at 50% and it was still too distant. I finally dialed it in at 10% and it was just OK.

[Peter Z]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

I am not sure they need any help from me. They are professionals, I am a hobbyist!

But you follow the right path!

[Peter Z]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

I'm in the camp that believes that what works in a small room for testing, will likely not work on a stage. For an extreme example, I remember the first big gig I did with Fishman Aura Plus in a Martin HD-28E Retro. That system had the ability to get the full effect from 0-100%. I was playing a concert in a minor league baseball stadium with a huge professional sound installation. I tried using the Aura image at full and it was a mess. I tried at 50% and it was still too distant. I finally dialed it in at 10% and it was just OK.

Yes to everything you wrote! Same experiences here.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Peter Z

Yes to everything you wrote! Same experiences here.

While I am not a fan of the LR Baggs Anthem, it appears that the system is a favorite of folks who play loud stages for this reason. And, of course, artists have been using under saddle transducers for this reason for 40 years.

[Peter Z]

The Anthem is the best pickup I ever had or played.

I never had the chance to try the K&K Trinity system with the mic though. Hope I get the chance in future. Would prefer the soundboard transducer instead of the UST.

[JackB1]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

While I am not a fan of the LR Baggs Anthem, it appears that the system is a favorite of folks who play loud stages for this reason. And, of course, artists have been using under saddle transducers for this reason for 40 years.

Exactly correct. The main problem with this forum is you are getting advice from people that play at home in a vey quiet environment, people that play direct into their DAW AND people that play live at quiet coffee shop gigs AND people that play live at a louder volume. All these are different scenarios and you really need to know who's advice you are getting. Do they play live like me or are they a home recorder like me? Etc. Know the source.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by JackB1

Exactly correct. The main problem with this forum is you are getting advice from people that play at home in a vey quiet environment, people that play direct into their DAW AND people that play live at quiet coffee shop gigs AND people that play live at a louder volume. All these are different scenarios and you really need to know who's advice you are getting. Do they play live like me or are they a home recorder like me? Etc. Know the source.

That's a good point. Actually, the other day I started thinking about professional musicians who play my style of music and in similar venues. This includes everything from fairly aggressive strumming to finger picking in fairly loud venues or outdoor shows (think 300-400 in a large pub/venue). I wanted to get a sense of what they use. Not surprisingly, the main pickups were either simple UST's, the Takamine palathetic pickup and the Anthem. The only real exception was the Aura Spectrum DI being used by some and Billy Strings who uses a hybrid K&K/Double Helix set up. Some also use the Sunrise magnetic pickup.

The point is, a lot of these players using IR's, dual source pickups with a SBT/Mic etc., are doing so in venues where this is possible. I tend to see them in solo or duo settings. Once you get into heavy strumming or larger venues with more band members, these more natural pickups just get lost. Even the California Guitar Trio are using the Martin SC-13E guitars live.

I do wish that I liked the Anthem more. There's just something about it that I dislike tonally. I still don't understand why I like the Lyric but not the Anthem.

[shufflebeat]

Originally Posted by JackB1

The main problem with this forum is you are getting advice from people that play at home in a vey quiet environment, people that play direct into their DAW AND people that play live at quiet coffee shop gigs AND people that play live at a louder volume. All these are different scenarios and you really need to know who's advice you are getting.

This is very wise.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

That's a good point. Actually, the other day I started thinking about professional musicians who play my style of music and in similar venues. This includes everything from fairly aggressive strumming to finger picking in fairly loud venues or outdoor shows (think 300-400 in a large pub/venue). I wanted to get a sense of what they use. Not surprisingly, the main pickups were either simple UST's, the Takamine palathetic pickup and the Anthem. The only real exception was the Aura Spectrum DI being used by some and Billy Strings who uses a hybrid K&K/Double Helix set up. Some also use the Sunrise magnetic pickup.

The point is, a lot of these players using IR's, dual source pickups with a SBT/Mic etc., are doing so in venues where this is possible. I tend to see them in solo or duo settings. Once you get into heavy strumming or larger venues with more band members, these more natural pickups just get lost. Even the California Guitar Trio are using the Martin SC-13E guitars live.

I do wish that I liked the Anthem more. There's just something about it that I dislike tonally. I still don't understand why I like the Lyric but not the Anthem.

I wonder if this big venue/loud setting/band mix problem has anything to do with why the Acoustasonic Jazzmaster and the Acoustasonic Player series Tele have a switch position for dry UST and overdriven dry UST signals.

BTW, I couldn't resist pulling the trigger on a NuX Optima Air IR gizmo. Since there doesn't appear to be an actual blend control, I'm thinking that I may have to add in some dry signal through the 1/8" Aux In if I need a drier signal for a loud setting. Oh well, I couldn't resist the (relatively) cheap experiment.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

I wonder if this big venue/loud setting/band mix problem has anything to do with why the Acoustasonic Jazzmaster and the Acoustasonic Player series Tele have a switch position for dry UST and overdriven dry UST signals.

BTW, I couldn't resist pulling the trigger on a NuX Optima Air IR gizmo. Since there doesn't appear to be an actual blend control, I'm thinking that I may have to add in some dry signal through the 1/8" Aux In if I need a drier signal for a loud setting. Oh well, I couldn't resist the (relatively) cheap experiment.

My latest code generates a selection of blended IRs (100/0, 75/25, 60/40, 50/50, 40/60, and 25/75, IR/Bypass).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YoM...ew?usp=sharing

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

My latest code generates a selection of blended IRs (100/0, 75/25, 60/40, 50/50, 40/60, and 25/75, IR/Bypass).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YoM...w?usp= sharing

Very cool. That's a good way to have plenty of blend options to accommodate different situations.

I have the original Aura acoustic imaging blender and it has a similar setup. For each sound image you have a choice of nine different dry pickup/sound image blends: 100/0, 87.5/12.5, 75/25, 62.5/37.5, 50/50, 37.5/62.5, 25/75, 12.5/87.5 and 0/100.

PS. On the subject of the original acoustic imaging blender, its interesting to note that its similar to the Optima Air in that it has five sound images (IRs) which were created using mag pickups. They hadn't yet decided to discourage the use of mag pickups with Aura technology back then.

[jonfields45]

If electric guitar cabinet IR pedals are going to be the price leaders in this segment, then a blended IR for acoustic guitars seems like a good option to have with those pedals. A cabinet IR is directly measured and should be used at 100%. Cabinet IR pedals have no need for a blend capability.