When to radius fretboard and install frets

[maxpower]

Hi,
This is my first post.
I'm currently building my first acoustic (4th guitar overall), and I'm nearing the final stages. It's an OM sized cutaway, European spruce top, Sapele back and sides, Mahogany neck, Rosewood fretboard.
I've had a few niggly problems along the way, but nothing major, just stuff that slowed my down a bit overall.
I'm at the stage now, where the body is essentially done, the fretboard is glued to the neck. The holes for bolts are drilled into the neck tenon and the fret slots are cut. ( I haven't yet drilled the two holes into the heel block in the body ).
The neck tenon fits nice and tight to the body mortoise and all allignment is spot on, so I'm wondering if I should radius the fretboard with the neck bolted to the body, or radius it separately?
My instinct is that I should radius it bolted to the body, as this is a better representation of what the plain of the fretboard will be. I'm worried that if I try radius it detached from body, I could inadvertently put pressure on the soundhole end of the fretboard and bend it down and therefore not radius it properly.
My other question is: Should I install the frets before I attach the neck to body, or after?
Cheers.

[charles Tauber]

There is no single "right" answer. There are numerous sequences that can be used, each of which can produce suitable results. Essentially, pick one that you like and make it work for you.

My preference is to plane the fingerboard after the guitar is fully assembled, planing a radius into the fingerboard, if it is to have one. Fretting, obviously, is done after that. It is my preference because it ensures assembly does not alter the finished plane of the fingerboard.

[maxpower]

Thanks Charles. You're approach seems pretty similar to what I was intending to do. As this is my first acoustic build though, I just wanted other peoples' opinions and some reassurance before I went ahead with it. Regarding fretting, do you hammer in the frets? and if so, how do you go about hammering in the frets past where the neck meets the body? towards the sound hole, where obviously there is no underneath support from the neck.

[Bruce Sexauer]

I am with Charles on this. Many people, and virtually all production shops, fret the fingerboard before installing the neck, or the fingerboard to the neck, for that matter. This leads to all sorts of set up difficulties, or to a ramped off FB extension, which is therefore technically unplay able as the intonation cannot be right.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by maxpower

Regarding fretting, do you hammer in the frets?

I currently favour hammering them in, though I've tried other methods.

how do you go about hammering in the frets past where the neck meets the body? towards the sound hole, where obviously there is no underneath support from the neck.

My heel block is an inverted "L" shape, with one leg of the L underneath the top/fingerboard. It extends to, and touches, the upper transverse brace. There are several reasons why I use that arrangement. One is that I use the upper transverse brace abutting the end of the block to position the top while gluing the top to the side assembly.

Another reason is to provide structure for the truss rod, the adjustment nut of which abuts the face of the upper transverse brace, accessed through a hole in the brace. (As Bruce has pointed out, elsewhere, making the truss rod adjustment too accessible might not be a good thing, given that many players inappropriately adjust it.)

Another reason is, by making the block wider than the fingerboard, to prevent cracks in the top along the sides of the fingerboard.

Another reason, relevant to your question, is that it provides some support for hammering - or pressing - frets into the fretboard extension. (On classical guitars, I press/clamp the frets in on the frets beyond the upper transverse brace.) The mostly flat length of the leg of the L allows a clamp to be inserted in the sound hole and clamp across a fret to press it in. Mostly, though, I hammer them. Only if there is a fret that refuses to seat fully do I resort to clamping.

[redir]

I do the same as Charles does now too. For a long time I used to fret with the neck off the guitar but found that sometimes I can get a very slight discrepancy at the body joint and need to do it over or make the adjustment to the frets themselves which I would rather not do. I've gotten my process now to where I can almost have perfect action just by getting the neck angle and geometry right but I sill like to do the radius and fretting with the neck attached. That way everything is perfect.

If you use a more modern bolt on neck then you can probably get away with fretting with the neck not attached because it's all one unit anyway. So it depends. Like Charles said there is no one right way to do it. The right way to do it is what works for you and your methods.

[maxpower]

Thanks guys,
You're reasons for radiusing the fretboard and fretting with the neck when it's attached to the body all makes logical sense to me. It's kind of what I was thinking and it's nice to have ye point out all the good reasons for it. I had some issues with unevenness in the plain where the the extension of the fretboard extends to the soundhole (partly due to issues introduced from doing a cutaway), so I actually had to carefully glue in 2 hardwood veneer shims and then sand that whole area relatively flat to accommodate the fretboard extension, but it's worked out pretty well. I don't see any gaps, the whole fretboard is pretty straight and the neck fits snug to the body, so, so far, so good. next big step will be the bridge, saddle etc. I guess. Thanks again.

[redir]

Sounds like you went about it the right way. On future build try and figure that out. But it's always better to add a wedge shim under the tongue rather then just clamp it down and get a hump. But if you sit down with some paper and pencil you can come up with a plan to make sure that the transition at the body joint is perfect. This is often times referred to as neck angle geometry and there are many ways to do it.

I work on an open work board building from the top in the classical Spanish style and have the neck angle geometry worked out into my workboard. The work board starts to angle up from the top of the soundhole to the neck block. I forgot the exact measurement now but not much, only 1/6th inch or so. So when I pull the body of the guitar off the workboard after closing the box there is a slight ramp that goes from the tip of the head block to the tip of the sound hole. If you put a straight edge there then it will lie flush to the top of the sound hole and then the airspace at the bridge location is about 1/8th inch or so.

Other ways of doing this are to use radius dishes, modern bolt on necks that are essentially one piece or use shims under the neck extension block, or even just settling for using shims under the tongue.

[maxpower]

Thanks redir.
I think the issue started when I drew the taper into the side with the cutaway on it.
I was doing this in college (the college course is in instrument making), and the tutor had sheets of card cut into the shape of side tapers. Unfortunately he gave me a taper for a normal, non-cutaway side, so I ended up planing and sanding in too much of a taper on the cutaway side. I fixed it as best I could, and actually ended up with a bit of a gap between the soundboard and cutaway side (which I successfully filled with some veneer). I compensated a bit, by tapering down the opposing side so the two side tapered more equally toward the heel block, but then ended up with a slightly steeper dip than desired, and also a bit of unevenness overall in the plain where the fretboard extended toward the sound hole. But like I said before, I was able to fix that issue. I guess it's my first acoustic build, so not surprised there has been some issues. Probably didn't help that I made if harder for myself by doing a Venetian cutaway, but it's what I wanted and I certainly don't regret that choice.

[redir]

Oh I see yeah that's a bit different then what I was saying. That's cool that you have college course doing this though.

[maxpower]

Yeah, it's pretty cool; except we were due back on 6th January and now because of Covid concerns, it's been pushed to the end of January; so I'm trying to do as much at home as I can. Plus I aim to build a thru-neck 4 string bass before the end of the academic year. I'm hope I'm not biting off more than I can chew, but then again, I hate being idle

[redir]

Originally Posted by maxpower

Yeah, it's pretty cool; except we were due back on 6th January and now because of Covid concerns, it's been pushed to the end of January; so I'm trying to do as much at home as I can. Plus I aim to build a thru-neck 4 string bass before the end of the academic year. I'm hope I'm not biting off more than I can chew, but then again, I hate being idle

I built my first guitar when I was studying Geology at the University in the early 90's. My first was an electric becasue I thought that would be a good place to start, and I think it was. Then I got into acoustic guitars. I could only build on my breaks though so as soon as I got home I was down in my fathers basement workshop toiling away

I live in a Uni town today, my wife works there, and I can see it's strange times for young people for sure. They are doing their graduation online. So if anything it's a good time to be in a workshop building guitars... Good luck and post some pics when you are done.

[maxpower]

although I started guitar building much later in my life path (I initially studied Fine Art in the mid 90's), I also started with an electric build. I agree, acoustics are much more involved. I liken it somewhat to a mix of engineering, architecture, art and craft. I find it's much easier to screw up, but like anything else, I guess practice approaches, in not ever reaches, perfection. Strange times indeed with universities and education in general. I'm really missing that human interaction. My workshop is the Kitchen table in the Kitchen of rented accommodation, but it does the job I'll post pics for sure, once it's done.