Breaking out of fingerstyle habits?

[Tuff Gong]

I have been working with Mark Hanson's book which is excellent but I am finding it much easier to get along with outside-in picking than I am with inside-out.

For some reason inside-out doesn't feel as natural and I find myself slipping into outside-in all the time. As I am new to finger picking I really don't want to pick up bad habits so any advice as to how I can keep the two seperate would be welcome.

Maybe I should stop practicing outside-in for a while but I don't want to lose any of the progress I have made so far...

[Bikewer]

I've been playing fingerstyle since about 1976 and have never heard these terms.
What is this fellow on about?

[FingerFlicker]

outside in - pattern is something similar to A B pinch D then G string (Dust in the Wind type of pattern)
inside out - opposite i suppose never used it

[Tuff Gong]

By way of clarification I am taking about alternating bass patterns or Travis Picking:

On a C chord for example, what Mark Hanson's "Contemporary Travis Picking" refers to as an "Outside-in" pattern is Thumb (5th string), (Middle 2nd string), Thumb (4th string), Index (3rd string).

The "Inside-out" pattern for C would be Thumb (5th), Index (3rd string), Thumb (4th string),Middle (2nd String).

My problem is that I find difficult to keep playing Thumb/Index/Thumb/Middle but relatively easy to play Thumb/Middle/Thumb/Index. As a consequence I often find myself reverting to the easier pattern unintentionally, almost subconsciously.

Sorry if the question was unclear but, as so many people seem to use/recommend the Mark Hanson Travis Picking book, I thought the Outside/Inside picking pattern terms were in popular currency with fingerstyle guitarists. I hope that I have now clarified what I meant in the original post.

Thanks.

[deltoid]

I find the outside-in pattern to be easier as well. It won't hurt you to concentrate more on those areas where you have difficulty. That's just better practice and more efficient use of your time.

[Bikewer]

I learned basic fingerpicking via the time-honored method of watching my already-playing buddies and trying to figure out what they were doing. One day it just "clicked" and I had the basic pattern down.
Over time, I learned to alter that pattern and embellish it with other techniques.

I would have a very hard time explaining or diagramming what my fingers are doing at this point.

[Tuff Gong]

I guess the best thing to do is practice efficiently, so with that in mind, I'll just have to practice the pattern I find most difficult more than the one that's easier.

My real concern is the way I slip from the hard one to the easy one without realising it's happened.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Tuff Gong

By way of clarification I am taking about alternating bass patterns or Travis Picking:

On a C chord for example, what Mark Hanson's "Contemporary Travis Picking" refers to as an "Outside-in" pattern is Thumb (5th string), (Middle 2nd string), Thumb (4th string), Index (4th string).

Index 4th string? are you sure?

Originally Posted by Tuff Gong

The "Inside-out" pattern for C would be Thumb (5th), Middle (2nd String), Thumb (4th string), Index (3rd string).

I don't understand the terminology here. What exactly makes one pattern "outside in" and the other "inside out"?
Is there a typo there somewhere?

Originally Posted by Tuff Gong

My problem is that I find difficult to keep playing Thumb/Index/Thumb/Middle but relatively easy to play Thumb/Middle/Thumb/Index. As a consequence I often find myself reverting to the easier pattern unintentionally, almost subconsciously.

No problem, IMO. Follow whatever's easier, as long as you play the detail you want. All the great players in this style developed their own personal version and techniques. Travis himself - who didn't invent it of course, but adapted it from players like Blind Blake and Mississippi John Hurt - only used thumb and index, resting the other 3 fingers on the scratchplate. (I don't think I've seen him using middle at all in the online videos.)
Most fingerstylists will use index and middle, but not in any fixed regime (I mean along with the thumb in its alternating role). Personally I use mainly middle and ring finger, with index as occasional spare.
Classically, the index finger controls the 3rd string and the middle the 2nd string (ring on top string) - because that suits the natural shape of the hand - but those assignments are still flexible depending on the piece.

[Tuff Gong]

Thanks for spotting the Typo John, I've now corrected it. Your comments were very encouraging too. Cheers.

[shawlie]

If you find it easier to go thumb/middle/thumb/index, you could just use your middle finger and see if it is easier. One less finger to worry about and it is not a very busy pattern, so one finger would be ok (even if you play a bit fast).

It is maybe a little harder to go "in" towards the bass strings (at least I think it is, too), but it could just be you might prefer your middle finger. I know I do, and tend to use it as often as possible.

Once you get more notes on the treble, you will probably want to use two fingers (and feel comfortable going in and out) but I never found it a problem to use one finger more often than the other, if it feels and plays better. Go "in" just using middle finger, go "out" using both - every song is different and you'll probably end up using almost every combination possible eventually.

[Bill Ericay]

I assume you're working thru 'Art of Contemporary Travis Picking'.

I've been trying to get through this book for the last year-perhaps I'm not very talented.
My answer seems to be practice,practice, followed by more practice.
I too found Outside In relatively easy,as it was one of the first patterns, but IO as in 'John Barleycorn' was a nightmare. but with perseverance, eventually it became just as easy, then much later down the line I actually played the song with the right emphasis on the thumb it takes ages but eventually your brain goes dead and you do it automatically.
It took nearly 9 months of on -off practice to manage to play Freight Train like I meant it as opposed to a series of notes.That was a really great feeling-after 2 years of 'practice', I could sound like a musician.
I'm now struggling through 3 string bass patterns and 6 string playing but I'm sure I'll get there in the end. It might take me another year to finish the book,but 2 years ago I couldn't strum a chord.
Try and practice the harder ones more, you're probably a much better player than me , and if even I can do it surely you can as well!!

[RustyAxe]

Originally Posted by Bikewer

I would have a very hard time explaining or diagramming what my fingers are doing at this point.

I'm the same way. I've been playing since the late 60's, picked up Travis picking back then, and have embellished and expanded it. Some of the patterns and riffs are just muscle memory at this point. I don't think a whole lot about where my fingers are or what they're doing ... it just flows. Even new songs, with new licks, are practiced until I don't think about it any more. Leaves me free to think about other things ... like lyrics, phrasing, expression ... and that lovely young lady in the second row.

[Tuff Gong]

I'm inspired Bill: I am reading that book and John Barleycorn is what prompted the post. I am finding it nightmarish in comparison to "Sloop John B." Did you find it critical to actually play along with the CD as you went through the book or did you you sometimes just go it alone?

[D. Churchland]

Having recorded 7 albums and taught many students I can't say I've ever heard of the terms "inside out" and "outside in" picking ever. Is that referring to the right hand if you have a pattern like the following?

Outside in

P A P M P I

Inside out

P I P M P A

I'm so confused :P

[Bill Ericay]

Hi Tuff.
John Barleycorn--
1. I grew to hate this song-if only you could turn down the volume of the singing so you could hear the guitar more! At the time I was taking guitar lessons, and when people asked how I was getting on the answer was always John Barleycorn.
2. ThenI heard Steve Winwoods version of the song and thought, its not so bad after all- a bit of inspiration to continue.
3. Found a posting on another forum from someone just like me who also struggled through John Barleycorn-so it wasn't just me.
4. Had problems going from the C to G until I realised I didn't need to fret the high e so that got rid of that problem.
5. Then practiced some more without the cd, and only started playing along with it when my brain died and the song became automatic.

There you have it , the 5 step plan!

As someone said some time ago on this forum, the guitar IS a difficult instrument to play, I would certainly agree with that!