Scales - Should I learn them?

[Long813]

Originally Posted by Cue Zephyr

Ok, let me get this into context.

I'm shooting for advanced campfire guitar as well as recording artist and/or session musician.

I'm on my own, so I'm in a one-man band, playing every instrument, so like Lenny Kravitz does, for example.

I generally love theory.

I'm now learning barre chords to play different voicings all over the neck (leaving the G barre out, because I just can't play that).

I'm familiar with the sound of the maj scale and the m pent scale, I can usually find the other positions because I know the sound of the scale.

I'm also familiar with intervals, but not really where they are on the neck (can find them on the keyboard).

I'm also familiar with the circle of fifths and transposing. Transposing especially, is important for me, because I play guitar as well as sing, and frequently need to transpose to enable me to sing to my playing.

I guess scales are not for now. Once I get enthousiastic about it, it'll work out but that appears not to be at this moment.

Thank you for your replies.

So here's the break down. Any chord progression you make lays in a major/minor key. Scales will describe everything you do. If you understand the notes, involved, how to create progressions you can do things faster, no need to guess what goes with what, be able to express your self better.

Do you know the fretboard well? That's the most important part above all else.

[Cue Zephyr]

By not understanding your question I think I don't know the fretboard at all.
I understand scales and modes, where the tones and semitones are, which note is what interval in which key. I think I have enough on my hands learning the notes in the (barre) chords. I know where my roots are, only have to find my thirds and fifths. Most of the time I'm also able to find chords, such as maj7, m7, 7, maybe 6, sus2 and sus4, with knowing which note I have to add from the scale.
It looks like I understand scales but not on the fretboard.

[RevGeo]

I think practicing scales is important for any instrument player. Thousands of pianists, trumpeters, sitarists, sax players etc. bear me out, I think.
And the reason for practicing scales is a very simple one:
That's where the **** notes are! How you mix 'em up is your business.

A guitar fretboad is really laid out in a logical manner, given standard tuning, putting notes that make sense with each other (diatonic, in-scale, harmonious-whatever you want to call it) in close proximity. 'Melodies' as we know them exist within certain scales and those scales are all laid out for reasonably easy fingering. It makes sense that notes that need to be played in a harmonius fashion end up being laid out in patterns. People ***** about patterns all the time. It's not the fault of the pattern, it's the creativity of the individual player that is limited. The note possibilities within the patterns up and down the neck are staggering. Patterns are a good thing.

A long time ago a good guitarist said 'We all oughta pray three times a day to the guy that tuned his second string different from all the others. He sure made things a lot easier'. Something to think about....

Rev George

[JoeCharter]

Honestly, for anyone who aims to be a serious musician, this is a no brainer. Given the nature of the question, I was prepared for the most horrible videos on the OP's Youtube channel but was surprised to find relatively decent musicianship.

Scales and arpeggios aren't nearly as intellectual as what people think they are. Of course, music is highly structured but the structure means nothing if you can't hear it. I learned how to recognize various scales and arpeggios well before I was forced to learn what they were made of.

There are plenty of very fine guitar players who are doing very well without having ever seriously practiced their scales and arpeggios -- good for them. Personally, I always aimed to be a well rounded player. Whether I need to be lyrical or play a furious run, I have the technique to back me up because I actually practiced the essentials.

If you want to become a session player, you better learn your scales (and a whole lot more). A session player makes a living out of being highly skilled, versatile and reliable. Without scales, you're good for a campfire at best (unless you're an incredible singer, or develop a highly original style that people actually want to hear).

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by Cue Zephyr

I'm shooting for advanced campfire guitar as well as recording artist and/or session musician.

Advanced campfire guitar is probably level 1 or 2. Session musician is level 9 or 10. Better be more specific about your objectives.

Originally Posted by Cue Zephyr

I'm now learning barre chords to play different voicings all over the neck (leaving the G barre out, because I just can't play that).

If you're going to quit on a G chord, either forget about being a serious musician or get back to work.

Seriously, with the talent that you have, it would be a waste to botch your learning of the guitar. Learn it right, it'll serve you for a lifetime.

[Cue Zephyr]

Looks like it's my own stubbornness that's causing a roadblock.
I said I'd leave the G out because of physical limits, sure it will get better in time, but not now.

It also looks like I don't have to be more specific about my objectives, it just looks like I want to go from level 1 all the way to 10.

Thanks for your replies all, looks like I have to slowly pick up some scales.
Thing is I have no idea where to start and I have no clue on what works.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Cue Zephyr

Hey folks,
I recently started improvising over simple pop songs, and was wondering the question in the title.
Do I really need to learn scales like the maj, m, maj pent and m pent to use them and improvise? Or is it enough to just practice a lot to familiarize with the chords, then the intervals and then using that to get the sound I want? Like, basically trying to get a feel for the fretboard?
I'm not asking this on a more electric-focused forum because I'll probably get replies telling me to learn them.

Please give me your opinions.

CZ

Knowing scales is good. Knowing chord shapes and how they repeat up and down the neck is good. Knowing chord inversions is good. Understanding chord progressions and chord substitutions is good. Knowing several right hand picking patterns is good. Knowing how to easily move in and out of syncopation is good. Do whatever you have time for as the more you know the better. Best in my opinion is incorporating a lot of the above in actual songs and to get the most from that it means picking the right songs and learning them really well (a habit of half learned songs gets you nowhere fast).

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Cue Zephyr

...Please give me your opinions.

Hi CZ…
Notes and Scales are to music what the letters and reciting the alphabet are to written/spoken language. Chords are just clusters of notes from the scales and equate to ''words'' in language.

When it comes to talking, we learn to speak before we learn to spell, and then we go to school for a couple years and gradually begin learning how to read and write the words we already speak. In fact we don't even focus on teaching new vocabulary (in regards to reading) till about 3rd grade.

The first couple grades are spent just harnessing and reading/writing the words we already know, and how to learn more of them. There are equivalents in music as well.

Many great players learn to play and even to write songs using chords without knowing how to "spell" them, and even become musically eloquent without knowing how to read/write music. They often learn the relationship of the notes to chords and progressions just by use.

To me learning scales is a natural outflow of understanding and harnessing the fingerboard (fretboard). Scales are one way of bringing things a bit under one's control.

There are many great scale-learning resources available to learn how to play and utilize them.

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by Cue Zephyr

Thanks for your replies all, looks like I have to slowly pick up some scales.
Thing is I have no idea where to start and I have no clue on what works.

Based on the questions you've been asking, and based on your objective of playing professionally, you'll have to start practicing seriously and stop finding excuses to avoid the G chord and skip learning scales, which is really music 101.

If you play mostly for fun, anything goes. But if you want to make a career out of this, I must very respectfully say you'll need to work much harder. Young classical guitar students from around the world can barre a G chord. If you can't play it, you just haven't tried hard enough.

And if you're even considering skipping scales, I think you definitely have the wrong attitude. There are many shortcuts in music, and most of them lead to a full time position as a campfire guitarist.

Trust me, no one will hire you as a session player to play a bunch of open chords. You'll be hired as a session player if you can play something better than the rest of them. And since you can find a half dozen guitar players on every street corner, you better be darn good if you want the gig.

[Cue Zephyr]

You guys have convinced me to start running through some scales.
In fact I started looking (and playing) through all the five positions of the major scale, of which I'm really familiar with only one or two. Next thing I can do is figure out the maj pent scales by taking out the 4th and 7th degrees.
The other scale I'm familiar with is the m pent position 1, and I think 3 as well.

I don't really play for fun, well of course I do, but not only fun, I really want to play. Playing guitar is part of my daily routine.

The wrong attitude might have been caused by simply not knowing which stage to do next.

I really liked that analogy with the alphabet, this really made me understand a bit more what I'd be missing if I'd skip learning scales. I'd be playing gibberish, so to speak.

I'll just no-brain through the scales to prevent myself from stopping halfway through learning, then afterwards I'll find out how to utilize the alphabet I just learned.

I thank you once again.

[Nimrod]

How about knowing what scale to play for the key of the song. thats one aways being dropped in my lap

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by Cue Zephyr

You guys have convinced me to start running through some scales.

Good luck with all of this. I think you are talented enough to give this a shot.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Cue Zephyr

You guys have convinced me to start running through some scales.
In fact I started looking (and playing) through all the five positions of the major scale, of which I'm really familiar with only one or two.

Go Cue…

Scales are good to know, and have fun integrating what you learn with other music as well. We've never attended a ''concert of scales''.

[Allman_Fan]

In my mind, "knowing" a scale and "practicing" a scale are two different things.

If you "know" a scale, you can transfer that knowledge to another musical instrument, say a piano, trumpet, etc.

But if you "practice" a scale, then the manual skills learned to perform that task is not really going to transfer over to another instrument. (Maybe somewhat to another stringed instrument.)

[Long813]

Originally Posted by Cue Zephyr

Looks like it's my own stubbornness that's causing a roadblock.
I said I'd leave the G out because of physical limits, sure it will get better in time, but not now.

It also looks like I don't have to be more specific about my objectives, it just looks like I want to go from level 1 all the way to 10.

Thanks for your replies all, looks like I have to slowly pick up some scales.
Thing is I have no idea where to start and I have no clue on what works.

G shaped barre chords are rare in their full form anyways. I haven't come across one yet either. The G & D shaped barre's are very rare.