If Taylor's V-bracing is all that and a bag of chips

[Mike McLenison]

Taylor's have a good look but never understood their sound/tone attraction. Kind of like the 70's Ovation fad to me.

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by zmf

Enticing theory. I too was positively inclined towards some of Powers' earlier mods to the Taylor line.

But if I were to be swayed, I'd have to a assume a massive amount of cynicism on the part of Taylor. The sentimental part of me doesn't want to accept that a musical instrument maker with many devotees would risk their reputation. Or maybe they figured their fans would readily buy the lie, or not care about the difference.

How much cheaper would you guess the V-bracing guitars are to produce? Are you guessing, or are there solid numbers?

zmf...

It's not cynicism from Taylor, it's dollars and cents...ROI on EBITA.

V Class braced guitars still sound good to great, just very different from the original Taylor X bracing to the CVRR...RR is Relief Rout...change, to the APCV Deluxe Bracing...my wording...for Andy Powers superb re-voicing of the CVRR bracing pattern.

So why change from the super well regarded and successful APCV Deluxe re-boot...or...why not keep it and add the V-Class system, and then you have two very different, but excellent sounding bracing systems that you can use on your guitars, instead of just going straight V-Class on almost all of your models?

Again, over the last 25 years, Taylor has been morphing and advancing in the direction of less luthier artistry and to more and more production efficiency.

A company does that when they have decided to maximize their ROI and profitability over all other overarching business factors.

As to how much does Taylor save per guitar? I would guess...just guessing...somewhere in the range of $10 to $20 a guitar, parts cost and labor/production costs, so just for the sake of discussion, factor that against a production output in the range of 50K to 70K guitars a year...again just guessing on that.

That is a lot of extra ROI and profit.


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[steelvibe]

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

That is a lot of extra ROI and profit.


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

Not if they sell significantly less guitars. It is a huge gamble and I agree with you that they should offer both flavors- but that would impede their speed if your hypothesis is indeed accurate.

[mcduffnw]

It's the fact that many, many, many subjects/objects of discussion on the AGF are frequently to almost constantly/daily repeated either exactly, or very very similarly.

So maybe you think the V-Class Bracing subject has run it's course as far as your sense of interest and value about it is concerned. Fair enough, but I feel that way as well about many subjects that are repeated far far more often here on the AGF than the V-Class Bracing discussions are ever brought back up. Oh well...that's how it works on a super large and diverse forum site, and I understand, especially with the large influx of new members and guests we are getting, who are new to guitars and guitar forums, that subjects that are very old hat to me, are fresh and interesting and informative to a great many other folks here.

If I find them boring, I don't have to read them, or comment in them.

duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by LakewoodM32Fan

If v-bracing was purely either a manufacturing or a marketing move, I ask this: Why start it out on the most expensive guitars in your lineup? The people who either a) have the most discerning ears (or tastes) and b) are the most likely to scrutinize any major change...they live in this price range.

If it's truly just to save money: debut it everywhere, all at once. Or start it at the bottom lines, where the greatest savings would be realized, as they move way move 4xx series and below than they do 9xx and Presentation Series. And the majority of those won't care about the bracing.

Instead, Powers & Co. chose to start at the 9xx and Presentation series. Which accounts for a tiny percentage of their sales, while also including their most discerning owners.

Again, I've played only one v-class that inspired me (and I now own it) vs. a lot that didn't, so I'm no v-class fanboy. But if it truly were just marketing and manufacturing considerations, starting it out on the 9xx/Presentation series and opening yourself up to the most critical owners was a terrible strategic decision.

I don't think Powers & Co. made that mistake. I think they truly feel like v-bracing makes a positive difference and wanted to start with their flagship lines. We may feel otherwise about its benefits, but I genuinely believe Powers thinks the guitars he makes with v-class bracing are better than the ones he made withou it.

And who knows, we may change our tune later. Or they may refine the design later to suit more peoples' tastes. Think of all the different designs and materials that go into various iterations of x-bracing.

Remember: Apple bombed with the Newton in 1993. If you don't know what it is, google it. It's the iPad's great-great-granddaddy (in tech years time). You can flop on your first effort, only to get it right down the line.

Lakewood...

This wasn't a marketing move by Taylor, this was a major manufacturing change of course, a fairly radical move, to develop a completely different bracing pattern and then basically dump their X Brace pattern that they had used since 1974, with some modifications including the most recent re-vamp by Andy Powers that was HUGELY successful and well liked.

Remember, Andy Powers and Taylor Guitars began working on this V-Class design very early on once Andy came on board at Taylor. This was a long arc business decision/plan of action. The had a very important reason to spend that much time and effort to come up with this design and implement it pretty much across most of the Taylor line. This was not a mistake...as you say...by Taylor and AP...this was a very long range plan and major tectonic shift in most of their entire guitar product lineup. In fact, one of my questions is, if Andy Powers started working on the V-Class Bracing system from early on in his time at Taylor, and this was the direction...going full V-Class...that Taylor wanted to ultimately go, then why bother to re-vamp the X Brace system, and do such a great job of it that folks really loved it. Why build in internal competition against your V-Class system that is going to be a big shock to Taylor buyers and Dealers, who were so happy with the results of the X Brace re-fresh?

I do believe that Taylor and AP DO believe in the V-Class system, but not purely on it's sonic merits, which is different...in a good and interesting way...at best from the X Brace system, but NOT absolutely better whatsoever, and in truth has been received by experienced Taylor owners/enthusiasts with a mostly lukewarm reception, whereas the Andy Powers re-voiced X Brace system was super well received from the getgo.

I believe that Taylor Guitars made the move to improve their production efficiency and profitability therein. What I do not understand is why not just offer both the V-Class and the Andy Powers re-vamped X Bracing patterns. They are both terrific sounding in their own unique sonic ways, but neither is better than the other...just different. It would not be that hard for Taylor to incorporate both bracing systems into their tremendously efficient production system at the factory.

My guess is that the improvement in profitability in just using the V-Class system is great enough that Taylor felt that it was worth the risk to just change over to V-Class only.


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[Kerbie]

Let's try to stay on the topic of V-bracing. Like it or hate it, you're welcome to post your opinions, but we don't need to make this personal. Thanks.

[s2y]

I have only played a few at my local shop and didn't stand in the "sweet spot" out in front. Can't say I was too impressed. I personally liked the old Taylor sounds like my 12 fret, the old 810e DLX, the old 618e, etc.

[KevWind]

Actually you hit the nail on the head the difference is exactly that " the nature of the discussion" and rhetorical inference in the title pointing the "direction" .

Asking the genuine question "What is the best guitar for $500 or under" is not remotely the same in "nature" direction or inference as making the statement " If V bracing is so great, why don't the other makers use it " posed in the form of a question.

[Earl49]

FWIW it is different bracing. Better or worse is in the ear of the beholder, and if V-bracing floats your boat, then good on you.

I suspect that most of the negativity comes from the over-hyped marketing approach when it was first released. Reading the initial ad copy, you would think that V-bracing almost cured cancer. Had they introduced it more subtly as “new and improved” over the advanced bracing that preceded it, the reaction might not have been so polarizing.

[zmf]

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

It's not cynicism from Taylor, it's dollars and cents...

If a guitar company is making a change to increase profit, and covers it up with a load of BS about enhanced tone -- as you suggest -- this fits my definition of cynicism.

Originally Posted by Earl49

I suspect that most of the negativity comes from the over-hyped marketing approach when it was first released.

I agree. It accounts for my current attitude towards Taylor.
Part of a decision to buy a product is whether we choose to be associated with brand's image. Once the image is tainted -- rightly or wrongly -- a potential buyer goes elsewhere.

[Rev Roy]

Originally Posted by Earl49

FWIW it is different bracing. Better or worse is in the ear of the beholder, and if V-bracing floats your boat, then good on you.

I suspect that most of the negativity comes from the over-hyped marketing approach when it was first released. Reading the initial ad copy, you would think that V-bracing almost cured cancer. Had they introduced it more subtly as “new and improved” over the advanced bracing that preceded it, the reaction might not have been so polarizing.

Yep...what Earl said. /\ /\

[Br1ck]

Originally Posted by LakewoodM32Fan

If v-bracing was purely either a manufacturing or a marketing move, I ask this: Why start it out on the most expensive guitars in your lineup? The people who either a) have the most discerning ears (or tastes) and b) are the most likely to scrutinize any major change...they live in this price range.

If it's truly just to save money: debut it everywhere, all at once. Or start it at the bottom lines, where the greatest savings would be realized, as they move way move 4xx series and below than they do 9xx and Presentation Series. And the majority of those won't care about the bracing.

Instead, Powers & Co. chose to start at the 9xx and Presentation series. Which accounts for a tiny percentage of their sales, while also including their most discerning owners.

Again, I've played only one v-class that inspired me (and I now own it) vs. a lot that didn't, so I'm no v-class fanboy. But if it truly were just marketing and manufacturing considerations, starting it out on the 9xx/Presentation series and opening yourself up to the most critical owners was a terrible strategic decision.

I don't think Powers & Co. made that mistake. I think they truly feel like v-bracing makes a positive difference and wanted to start with their flagship lines. We may feel otherwise about its benefits, but I genuinely believe Powers thinks the guitars he makes with v-class bracing are better than the ones he made withou it.

And who knows, we may change our tune later. Or they may refine the design later to suit more peoples' tastes. Think of all the different designs and materials that go into various iterations of x-bracing.

Remember: Apple bombed with the Newton in 1993. If you don't know what it is, google it. It's the iPad's great-great-granddaddy (in tech years time). You can flop on your first effort, only to get it right down the line.

To answer your first question, marketing. First you establish exclusivity. The 914 customer probably has a few high end Taylors already, and they want to be the first. By starting with the better guitars, they are planting the idea the new system is a leap forward. Then gradually they introduce it to each new pricing level, until they get to the 300 series customer that is chomping at the bit to get this revolutionary design.

Advertising is the art of persuasion. Just like top performers and basketball players, those that are good are rewarded. You would like to pretend those 5 second adds on YouTube have no effect on you. Businesses know better and can track performance accurately. They don't spend dollars if it doesn't work.

You need to separate the building from the selling. Bob Taylor is not interested in building bad guitars. He is very interested in building good guitars cheaper. From the adoption of the bolt on neck, to the early adoption of CNC, pioneering robotics for applying finish, embracing the Pleck machine, and probably a host of other innovations which has enabled him to make enough money to support a lot of enviornmental projects, while incorporating this into his marketing strategy. First class business plan. Martin has been reacting to Taylor for decades. They had to develop the 16 series because Taylor was selling cheaper guitars and building brand loyalty. Later they followed Fender and Taylor into Mexico.

I thought I've been clear. This is the pinnacle of how to run a business, and should be admired. Keeping production cost as low as possible while producing a product people want to buy, then goosing that desire with brilliant marketing will make you a boatload of money. That is the goal of business, any business. I've seen their glossy magazine, it's a tour de force that has me drooling over their product, a product I don't particularly care for. It's good enough I pick up a Taylor to try now and then. Marketing success. Good design, good manufacturing,good marketing= business perfection.

[LakewoodM32Fan]

Br1ck: I do not disagree with anything you've written in terms of whether or not it's a good marketing strategy. It is.

The only quibble I've had is the implication (maybe not by you specifically, because so many people have chimed in to this thread I've lost who may have said it and I'm too lazy to re-read everything) that it was the driving force, versus Powers thinking it was actually a sonic improvement.

I get exclusivity and starting at the top. Yes Jordan got his kicks before the masses did. But if Nike had given him (and the other NBA players it sponsors) a shoe that was worse than the previous year, just with new, cooler colors, they would have voiced their displeasure. I'm sure Converse wish they had done that. I remember when most of the NBA used Converse in the early 80s.

So that's all I mean by "why start it at the top" if marketing and/or cost-savings were the primary drivers. Because that's your most discerning user base, and a good portion of them will sniff out quickly if something is changed for less-than-altruistic reasons.

So my personal belief is that Powers truly does prefer the sound of his v-b, while obviously many don't and it may have backfired a little, especially with the over-the-top marketing that followed.

I'd like to see an alternate reality where they didn't blitz the masses with those videos of Andy channeling his inner surfing guru, talking about waves, etc. and how this was the best thing since sliced bread. I have no doubt there would still be a significant portion of players who prefer the old x-bracing, but I think the degree of dislike would have been lessened because they wouldn't have been subjected to that marketing campaign.

[Mark Stone]

Originally Posted by LakewoodM32Fan

. . . . showed me that by changing out of Elixirs, which are bright and chimey, to literally any other string will help tame that brightness tremendously (currently have DR Sunbeams which add a surprising amount of mids to the koa b/s tone).

Elixirs by themselves are bright and chimey on any guitar, but with Taylors they seem to have this compounding effect and become even more so.

Or keep the elixirs and switch to Mediums - This darkens the tone substantially.

[Mark Stone]

I think it is a very informative discussion. Every subject of interest has been repeated over and over and over at the AGF.