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  #16  
Old 12-08-2014, 10:03 AM
Captain Jim Captain Jim is offline
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Originally Posted by Teleman52 View Post
i dont think he was trying to make a derogatory statement, or even stating HIS opinion. I think he was just stating a fact, most people DO prefer wood over carbon fiber for guitars
The sales figures certainly show that. If the statement in question wasn't intended to be derogatory, it would have been worded like yours... without the "wood vs plastic."

There are several threads on the CF forum right now, where a couple people seem to feel the need to get on here and proclaim they will always choose wood over carbon fiber. Kinda like getting on a truck forum and firing up the Ford vs Chevy endless debates.

It's a choice. It doesn't affect anyone else. If someone can't afford a carbon fiber or doesn't see the advantages, it is OK if they don't buy one. To get on here and wax romantic about wood vs CF is just more attempt at justification. Those of us who own CF aren't going to say, "OMG - he's right!! I have to sell my CF stuff and buy more wood!!!"

When someone says, "I played one. Sounds good. But the 'traditional-herd masses' won't accept it." Then goes on to point out how they are one of those "traditional-herd masses," is just makes me chuckle.

When new folks get on here to find out more about CF, it is nice to get some opinions from those who actually own and play CF. When someone gets on here only to say they would never buy a CF guitar because it was never alive, and tries to cheapen things by saying plastic instead of CF, it does become derogatory.

If looking for advice, who would you believe: someone who actually owns one or someone who has no hands-on experience with ownership? Most who participate here own/play CF AND wood. Just like people who own different wood brands... would you believe someone who says, "Martin is the ONLY smart choice"? Obviously, other brands wouldn't exist if that were true. CF isn't something "without a soul"; no need to fear or ridicule carbon fiber - it is just another choice.

Best wishes,
Jim
  #17  
Old 12-08-2014, 10:32 AM
HHP HHP is offline
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Originally Posted by Finger Stylish View Post
I believe Ovation / Adamas has proven itself to be a viable alternative ever since Glen Campbell showed up on Nation Television in the late 60's proving the worth of a "not all wood" guitar.
Maybe not the best example as they are now defunct.
  #18  
Old 12-08-2014, 10:55 AM
Jim K Jim K is offline
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Originally Posted by Teleman52 View Post
i dont think he was trying to make a derogatory statement, or even stating HIS opinion. I think he was just stating a fact, most people DO prefer wood over carbon fiber for guitars
I have to respectfully disagree with the portion of the quoted post where it refers to ". . . he was just stating a fact, most people DO prefer wood over carbon fiber for their guitars."

Where many of these discussions go astray, is when broad, over generalizations, which are not based on any verifiable information, . . . are presented as "fact".

For the quoted statement to be a "fact", it would have to be based on verifiable information that over 50% of all guitar players (or at least a very large statistically relevant sample), have actually played a carbon fiber guitar, and based upon actual playing experience, determined that they prefer wood over carbon fiber.

The above-described scenario does not exist, since the relatively rare presence of carbon fiber guitars in retail stores has not allowed such a volume of wood guitar players to have an appropriate experience playing a carbon fiber guitar.

What is a fact, is that:

A. the number of guitar players that have experienced carbon fiber guitars, and have determined that they (i) like carbon fiber guitars enough to purchase one (or more) for their collection which may also include wood guitar(s), and (ii) in some cases may have decided that the overall package of benefits offered by a carbon fiber guitar is preferable to a wood guitar;

B. is a sufficient number of guitar purchasers to currently support the business of the four long standing carbon fiber guitar manufacturers (i.e. RainSong; Composite Acoustics; Blackbird; and Emerald), . . . with RainSong having been successfully manufacturing carbon fiber guitars for 20 years or more, . . . and with McPherson now having entered the market.

Also, while not carbon fiber, keep in mind that the Martin line of HPL (high pressure laminate) body, and some body and top, guitars sits somewhere between the carbon fiber world and the solid wood guitar world.

While carbon fiber guitars are clearly a very small portion of the overall guitar market, the value and performance provided by carbon fiber guitars are clearly appreciated by a growing number of players, enough to keep the above-referenced companies in business, and incentivize McPherson to enter the market.

I also appreciate wood guitars, having played some fine Taylor and Martin guitars in a local shop over the weekend.

There is no need to make broad statements that (whether intended are not) appear to dismiss carbon fiber guitars entirely.

A more positive approach to commentary and discussion would be to celebrate the current vast number of choices for guitars players, from high end solid wood guitars made by both big producers and small luthiers from both traditional and exotic/rare tone woods, to guitars with different wood combinations and laminates that provide an increasing variety of nice sounding guitars in the $500 to $1000 range, to the option of carbon fiber and other composite instruments that provide quality tone (yes, different than wood tone, but still a quality acoustic tone), with the added benefits of protection against the issues of heat and humidity extremes that wood guitars must contend with.
  #19  
Old 12-08-2014, 02:04 PM
Doubleneck Doubleneck is offline
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I think of course of James Taylor and Phil Keaggy with their Olsons. I often see on TV the acoustic sidemen with head stocks and logos that I can't usually make out but I know they are not the big three. That is pretty common cause I love guitars and anything I can't reconize intrigues me. Yes Collins with Chris Tomlin. I just don't think its a total numbers game. It could be as said in a earlier post musicians are draw to artistic craftsmanship that wood gives. I know I am going through a Koa phase that really is about thinks other that just sound.
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  #20  
Old 12-08-2014, 02:13 PM
PeteCady PeteCady is offline
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Quote Mr. Ted:

"They don't give you 95% of a wood guitars sound, they give you a different sound, in fact for recoding and stage use they will outperform most wood guitars for most styles. So why isn't everyone using them? Because it really doesn't matter which acoustic you use on stage or in the studio. The tonal nuances we all love to talk about on these forums can't be heard during a large venue live performance, and certainly cant be heard in a noisy bar."

EX-f***ing-actly. And heat doesn't hurt them. And getting cold, then re-warming rapidly, doesn't hurt them. And getting bashed CAN hurt them, but it takes a lot more of a bash. I think the only reason more artists don't use them is they've prejudged the whole concept without trying them out, particularly on the road. (Of course, the really major artists aren't concerned with any of these issues, they have roadies for that.)
  #21  
Old 12-08-2014, 02:13 PM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
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Calling a carbon fiber guitar "plastic" is like equating cheap plywood with Brazilian rosewood (both are wood products). Ted and Captain Jim have made good comments in support / defense of CF. While I own many REALLY NICE wood guitars and love them, my Rainsong WS-1000 is the best sounding instrument on stage from all the collection and plays like butter. Plus the Rainsong has the added benefits of durability and immunity from humidity issues.



The tone of this thread started contentious and went downhill (although not nearly as far as many do). That is why I rarely ever visit or post here on AGF anymore. If I want to hear arguments started by uninformed partisans, I can watch any number of TV "news" shows on either Fox News or PBS. I'll just say this before I disappear for good: If the house caught fire (once people and pets are safe) I would grab the Rainsong on the way out the door. The custom shop J-40 Martin and several Taylor guitars (about $20K worth) would have to fend for themselves. 'Nuff said.

Sayonara.......
  #22  
Old 12-08-2014, 02:50 PM
Finger Stylish Finger Stylish is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HHP View Post
Maybe not the best example as they are now defunct.
That had to do more with Fender thinking they should buy them out and screw them up!
I would dare say that as far as Guitars available to the public, Ovation / Adamas are very plentiful and still sought after.
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  #23  
Old 12-08-2014, 04:31 PM
Trevor B. Trevor B. is offline
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[QUOTE=Ted If you were thinking of major artists like Paul Simon and Eric Clapton, than the answer is simple, these "A list" artist get huge sums of money to be seen with a particular brand, none of the small builders can afford them.




[/QUOTE]



Then again, Paul Simon recently acquired a Bruce and Matt Petros guitar and Eric Clapton plays a Lowden.
  #24  
Old 12-08-2014, 05:23 PM
kcnbys kcnbys is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl49 View Post
The tone of this thread started contentious and went downhill (although not nearly as far as many do). That is why I rarely ever visit or post here on AGF anymore. If I want to hear arguments started by uninformed partisans, I can watch any number of TV "news" shows on either Fox News or PBS. I'll just say this before I disappear for good: If the house caught fire (once people and pets are safe) I would grab the Rainsong on the way out the door. The custom shop J-40 Martin and several Taylor guitars (about $20K worth) would have to fend for themselves. 'Nuff said.

Sayonara.......
Wow. . . someone needs a hug!
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  #25  
Old 12-08-2014, 06:16 PM
Ted @ LA Guitar Sales Ted @ LA Guitar Sales is offline
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Originally Posted by Trevor B. View Post
Then again, Paul Simon recently acquired a Bruce and Matt Petros guitar and Eric Clapton plays a Lowden.
Paul Simon may have "acquired" a Petros but when I saw him a few months back with Sting, he had three Martin PS42's (his signature series) on stage. As for Clapton, I am not surprised he owns a Lowden, FYI he owns at least one Rainsong as well, but on stage last year it was his blue signature Martin that was front and center. Those signature Martins and Fenders keep his foundation afloat so don't expect much air time with other brands.

Both these guys are collectors with hundreds, even thousands of guitars in their collections, obviously they both have acoustics that are better than their signature Martins, we all know Clapton has a Henderson OM, so does anyone really think these guys are playing their best sounding guitars on stage? Last time Clapton did that was in 1992 for the MTV unplugged performance, he was playing the pre war 000-28 given to him by Steven Stills. By all accounts Clapton loved that guitar, but when it's value hit the roof, thanks to that performance, he put that $30,000 guitar up for auction and sold it for $950,000 which he put in his Cross Roads foundation.


So "why do few major artists play Carbon?", I'll stick to my original answer, not enough CF guitars out there, plain and simple. Given the number of guitars produced by the four builders, and the number of years they have been building guitars I would guess that there are less than 30,000 CF guitars out there total. Compare that to the millions of Martins, Gibsons and Taylors that are out there and things should start to make sense.
  #26  
Old 12-08-2014, 06:27 PM
HHP HHP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales View Post
Paul Simon may have "acquired" a Petros but when I saw him a few months back with Sting, he had three Martin PS42's (his signature series) on stage. As for Clapton, I am not surprised he owns a Lowden, FYI he owns at least one Rainsong as well, but on stage last year it was his blue signature Martin that was front and center. Those signature Martins and Fenders keep his foundation afloat so don't expect much air time with other brands.

Both these guys are collectors with hundreds, even thousands of guitars in their collections, obviously they both have acoustics that are better than their signature Martins, we all know Clapton has a Henderson OM, so does anyone really think these guys are playing their best sounding guitars on stage? Last time Clapton did that was in 1992 for the MTV unplugged performance, he was playing the pre war 000-28 given to him by Steven Stills. By all accounts Clapton loved that guitar, but when it's value hit the roof, thanks to that performance, he put that $30,000 guitar up for auction and sold it for $950,000 which he put in his Cross Roads foundation.


So "why do few major artists play Carbon?", I'll stick to my original answer, not enough CF guitars out there, plain and simple. Given the number of guitars produced by the four builders, and the number of years they have been building guitars I would guess that there are less than 30,000 CF guitars out there total. Compare that to the millions of Martins, Gibsons and Taylors that are out there and things should start to make sense.
I don't get the impression there huge, pent up demand for carbon such that there is a difficulty in finding or buying one if you want one. Couldn't the low production be more indicative of low demand? I suspect production numbers to date reflect expectation of demand.
  #27  
Old 12-08-2014, 06:49 PM
Ted @ LA Guitar Sales Ted @ LA Guitar Sales is offline
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Originally Posted by HHP View Post
I don't get the impression there huge, pent up demand for carbon such that there is a difficulty in finding or buying one if you want one. Couldn't the low production be more indicative of low demand? I suspect production numbers to date reflect expectation of demand.
No one said there was. Course if Martin and Taylor ever figure out how to build CF guitars with similar margins to wood guitars you will see Clapton and Swift on stage with their CF guitars. Once that happens you will see some serious demand. Till then it can be our little secret.
  #28  
Old 12-08-2014, 08:07 PM
Trevor B. Trevor B. is offline
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Hey Ted @ LA Guitar Sales, I think you may be reading more into my comment than was intended. I'm in no way slamming CF instruments or even disputing your assertion. I've played a few CF guitars recently and been happily surprised by how good they sounded. Given the ever-expanding list of tone woods falling under the restrictions of CITES, it seems to me we're all going to have to get used to the idea of CF guitars sooner rather than later.
  #29  
Old 12-08-2014, 11:02 PM
Pick guard Pick guard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleman52 View Post
i dont think he was trying to make a derogatory statement, or even stating HIS opinion. I think he was just stating a fact, most people DO prefer wood over carbon fiber for guitars
You are correct and thanks.
  #30  
Old 12-08-2014, 11:24 PM
drjond56 drjond56 is offline
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Let me qualify this by saying that I am not a carbon fiber owner, yet--but that is soon to change courtesy of Ted @ LA Guitar. Rainsong studio parlor on the way.

Why? First, I don't see it as a "different sound." With electronics and amplification a CF guitar can deliver a wide variety of sounds--certainly as versatile as wood. It will have a distinctive voice unamplified which may or may not fit everything I want to play. My wood guitars are custom Collings and Martin--superb instruments and I will not cast them aside. When the Rainsong gets here it will not be a "beater" as I will take care of it, but I play out a lot and living in the Deep South it will be great to have an instrument that will be able to hang out in the truck impervious to the environment.

Now as far as "artists" go, that does not apply to an intermediate player like me. I want to say that I really respect companies like Rainsong that do not pay artists to endorse their products. I mean, if you pay me enough I will go out with an Esteban, but really, put a product out and see how it does. Over time we will see more CF guitars in the public eye. Takes a while to be accepted. Any of you folks play with graphite shaft golf clubs? Sure helped my game.

Jon
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