Pentatonic scales

[richard1]

I have been learning the five positions using video lessons on you tube.
I'm making good progress, but I would like some help with a couple of questions I have.

1) There are 5 positions. This seems to work OK on electric guitars with the longer fretboard, but on acoustic are we limited to only 3 positions because access to higher frets is more difficult? I mean if I wanted to play a D minor scale, I would start on the low E string at fret 10 with the index finger. On my guitar I can't reach that scale as I have no cutaway. Can I start the scale from the A string, and if so does the 1st position pattern change? Is it even still the 1st position or do I have to use another scale pattern?

2) Depending on the teacher, some say position 1, some say G shape pattern and I find this confusing. I realize that the name G shape is in relation to the caged system, but to me I can't make out a G shape in the pattern. Position 2 ( or E shape ) doesn't look like an E shape. Am I misunderstanding the whole thing?

Any help would be most welcome.

[raysachs]

The advantage of learning ANY scale over the whole neck is that you can then play in any key anywhere on the neck. I you want to play a D minor pentatonic starting at the 5th fret, the scale looks pretty similar to how it plays at the 10th fret - only two notes (on the B and A strings) are in different places on the fretboard. And, of course, the roots are in completely different places. But you can play a D minor pentatonic at the 5th position.

A good thing to learn is not just the "boxes" that sort of live vertically in one position, but also learn the scales horizontally along the fretboard, so you can move from position to position more easily. It all comes with time. And practice, or just playing. You'll start to see and hear the patterns that are all over the fretboard. Then when you're comfortable with the minor pentatonic, it's insanely easy to learn the major pentatonic because you just slide down three frets for any position. Again, the roots are all different, but the scale shapes and relationships are all the same.

-Ray

[hubcapsc]

but on acoustic are we limited to only 3 positions

The five "boxes" repeat... just for example, if you were
playing in G major and starting at the nut, you would be able
to easily play all five boxes by the time you get to the twelfth
fret. If you're playing the d-minor shape at the tenth fret, then
instead of trying to keep on going after the twelfth, you could just
start at the nut and keep going until you got back to the tenth,
that would cover all five boxes...

-Mike

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by richard1

I have been learning the five positions using video lessons on you tube.
I'm making good progress, but I would like some help with a couple of questions I have.

1) There are 5 positions. This seems to work OK on electric guitars with the longer fretboard, but on acoustic are we limited to only 3 positions because access to higher frets is more difficult? I mean if I wanted to play a D minor scale, I would start on the low E string at fret 10 with the index finger. On my guitar I can't reach that scale as I have no cutaway. Can I start the scale from the A string, and if so does the 1st position pattern change? Is it even still the 1st position or do I have to use another scale pattern?

Here's the D minor pentatonic scale pattern, as far as you can comfortably reach on acoustic:

0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10  11  12  13  14  15
--|-F-|---|-G-|---|-A-|---|---|-C-|---|-D-|---|---|-F-|---|-G-|
--|-C-|---|-D-|---|---|-F-|---|-G-|---|-A-|---|---|-C-|---|-D-|
G-|---|-A-|---|---|-C-|---|-D-|---|---|-F-|---|-G-|---|-A-|---|
D-|---|---|-F-|---|-G-|---|-A-|---|---|-C-|---|-D-|---|---|-F-|
A-|---|---|-C-|---|-D-|---|---|-F-|---|-G-|---|-A-|---|---|-C-|
--|-F-|---|-G-|---|-A-|---|---|-C-|---|-D-|---|---|-F-|---|-G-|

How you break that down into "positions" is up to you. Learning the notes is the most important thing.

Originally Posted by richard1

2) Depending on the teacher, some say position 1, some say G shape pattern and I find this confusing. I realize that the name G shape is in relation to the caged system, but to me I can't make out a G shape in the pattern. Position 2 ( or E shape ) doesn't look like an E shape. Am I misunderstanding the whole thing?

The CAGED system is based on major chord shapes, so it's tricky to apply it to minor scales. So how you relate that system to a minor scale depends on whether you want to relate it to the relative major scale (F major in this case), or whether you want to adapt the CAGED forms to minor versions.

The way I'd relate that scale pattern to chord shapes is to find all the chords that are complete (root 3rd 5th all appearing in the scale).

So the only complete triad chords in that pattern are Dm (notes DFA) and F major (FAC). That's all, but that's really all you need.

The Dm chords are found in the following shapes:
"Dm" form: x-x-0-2-3-1, x-x-12-14-15-13
"Am" form: x-5-7-7-6-5
"Em" form: 10-12-12-10-10-10

The "Cm" and "Gm" forms are more like arpeggios or partial shapes than fully playable shapes:
"Cm" form: x-5-3-2-3--x
"Gm" form: 10-8-7-7-(10-10)

Meanwhile the F chord forms run in the order E-D-C-A-G, all playable, all overlapping. I'll leave you to map those out: just mark up all the F-A-C notes and look for shapes you recognise. (There is another "E" form on 13th fret, but not easily playable on a normal acoustic with no cutaway.

The chord shapes are best aid to memorising the scale pattern and understanding how to apply it. The pentatonic adds C and G to the Dm chord, and D and G to the F chord.
You can of course apply the scale to other chords, and that's where it really helps to know which note is which...

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by richard1

I have been learning the five positions using video lessons on you tube.
I'm making good progress, but I would like some help with a couple of questions I have.

1) There are 5 positions. This seems to work OK on electric guitars with the longer fretboard, but on acoustic are we limited to only 3 positions because access to higher frets is more difficult? I mean if I wanted to play a D minor scale, I would start on the low E string at fret 10 with the index finger. On my guitar I can't reach that scale as I have no cutaway. Can I start the scale from the A string, and if so does the 1st position pattern change? Is it even still the 1st position or do I have to use another scale pattern?

2) Depending on the teacher, some say position 1, some say G shape pattern and I find this confusing. I realize that the name G shape is in relation to the caged system, but to me I can't make out a G shape in the pattern. Position 2 ( or E shape ) doesn't look like an E shape. Am I misunderstanding the whole thing?

Any help would be most welcome.

OK as someone who does not have the music theory acumen that many here have., let me say I "know your pain" .
I have played guitar for 55 years mostly by ear, gut, feel, and books with chord diagrams ...... and only 4 years ago took formal lessons (specifically with the goal of learning to play leads ) .

So from that perspective the answer to you question #1 IMO, lies in the D minor pentatonic scale diagram that JonPR posted,,,, And understanding that regardless of how many frets you have to work with, and regardless where the pattern starts relative to the root note for that scale .The patten ranges both up and down the neck for most keys (except obviously where you physically run out of frets like say the G major pentatonic starting on the 3 rd. fret .

So back to your #1 question Yes you can start the D minor pattern on the A string (@ the 5ht fret) and when You look at D minor pentatonic diagram, the answer is both Yes and NO..... NO it is not the 1st position D minor that starts at the 10 th. fret BUT YES it starts like the first position pattern BUT the whole pattern is shifted vertically down one string to the A string starting on the D note (5 th Fret) which of course means the pattern shifts horizontally at the B string ,,,, which it does not do, when starting the pattern on the low E string (D note) 10 fret

Make sense ?

[richard1]

Thanks guys, I must admit I'm finding it all very confusing. I'll keep trying with it in the hope that something will click, but it's still Greek to me at present. Sometimes I think I'm getting it, then it all falls apart on me.

[MartinGibsonFan]

There is no need to go beyond the fifth fret to learn pentatonic scales.

Once you grasp that concept, go higher (fret wise)

MGF

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by richard1

Thanks guys, I must admit I'm finding it all very confusing. I'll keep trying with it in the hope that something will click, but it's still Greek to me at present. Sometimes I think I'm getting it, then it all falls apart on me.

Actually I did not get it until I actually found music teacher that could adapt his teaching to what I already knew and my particular learning style and strengths ( Not all teachers can actually do that)

I think to learn the pentatonic scales forget the CAGED system (for now) And focus on the patterns of the five positions (that do not change no matter what Key you are playing in) they just start on different root notes and thus at different positions on the neck but are always the same sequence of patterns

Start with the Key of A minor here is a good diagram the root notes (A) are in red

So this A minor pentatonic scale would start on the low E string @ the 5th fret (brown arrow )
And lets call that the 1st position Make sure you practice each single position until you can play it from the low E sting to the high E string and back to low E string (in other words going both up in pitch and then reverse and go down in pitch ............. BEFORE moving to the next position pattern.


Notice how each progressive position overlaps with the previous position and starts two frets back (to the left) into the previous position (understanding that and being able to play the scale both up and down in pitch ) is how you you will learn to flow up and down the neck ).

So in this diagram the 1st position pattern (for the key of A minor) is the second one down on the page