The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 07-02-2020, 11:23 AM
3notes 3notes is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: West of the Mississippi
Posts: 1,288
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jschmitz54 View Post
I’ve just past two years of playing acoustic guitar. I have a difficult time playing and singing. If I sing my playing, especially my pick hand has trouble strumming or picking correctly. I can’t seem to keep the correct strumming pattern. I also don’t seem to be able to project my voice and often find myself singing the strumming pattern instead of the correct melody. How do you sing and project your voice to the best of your ability and do your best playing at the same time and why is this so difficult for me?
There is one exception and that is Neil Young’s Old Man which I started learning early in my journey and have reached a certain level of competence playing and singing at the same time so I know it can be done.
Is this common? Are there any exercises to help? Wondering what others experiences have been like in this regard.
This is why I strongly believe in producing..... Original music. Why copy Neil Young.?? Already been done a million times. And the versions are NEVER better than the original. Doesn't matter the song.

People, the world needs more ORIGINAL music. To the OP.... Write and play your own music. That's what will work best for you.
__________________
Play it Pretty
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-02-2020, 11:24 AM
T.Lime T.Lime is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 147
Default

I don't fully know but I think a lot of musicians do this- when working on a song practice and practice the guitar part, when you have it down record it. Keep practicing it, but it gives you the space to sing over without having to worry about the playing bit. Recording something is also a very good way of critiquing your own playing- it never lies to you
I should add that just about every recording you hear is vocals and guitar recorded seperately... it is certainly our studio regime.
__________________
Jet JS-300 Sea Foam Modified Iron Gear Pig Iron and Texas Loco Pups and SD Vintage pup
2012 Gibson J-45 Custom Shop Pure Voice

www.tupelolime.com
https://tupelolime.bandcamp.com/
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-02-2020, 11:34 AM
jrb715 jrb715 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,209
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by archerscreek View Post
I do things differently than some. I learn a song by singing and playing at the same time, rather than learning the guitar part first then fitting vocals in there.

Also, written transcriptions (even published ones in books) arenÂ’t always 100% accurate, especially with the placement of words on top of the music. So if something in a song book is throwing you off, go by what hear in your head and see if that helps.

And thereÂ’s nothing wrong with playing a song a bit differently to match what you feel or hear. DonÂ’t be afraid to ditch the suggested strum pattern or alter it a bit. I donÂ’t think anyone ever played more live shows than Bill Monroe, and he said he always played and sang each song a bit differently depending on how he felt or what was going on in his life at the time.

Remember, music is art not engineering.
Archerscreek posts word for word what I suggest. I also learn the singing and the playing simultaneously. I always privilege the singing, so if I have to simplify parts difficult to play initially, I just simplify them at first, and as the song becomes more familiar I complicate the playing--until, as AC writes, I invariably start making every part of a song fit my feelings in the moment. And use your ears and common sense to make sense of song books, tabs, or chords/lyrics sheets. As you get more comfortable, you'll make the songs your own.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-02-2020, 11:36 AM
6L6 6L6 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 5,506
Default

Practice! And work on annunciation (slurring the words doesn't sound good).

You'll get there!
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-02-2020, 11:39 AM
Doranged Doranged is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 126
Default

Try not to oversimg the songs but almost talk sing them. The guitar playing will help with your singing by giving you cues. It's easier for me to sing and play than to sing without playing. The words and the music go together and kind of give you road to follow. My memory sucks but somehow I know the words and chords to a whole lot of songs when I don't know a single three part poem. After a while both the words and the chords and licks lead you to what's next and make the whole song easier.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-02-2020, 11:40 AM
Chris1226 Chris1226 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 37
Default

Had the same problem, like a friend of mine said, it’s like tapping your head and rubbing your belly at the same time. Asking your brain to concentrate on 2 different things at the same time. Like many have said, it takes hours of practice. In my first 2 years I would practice an average of 3 hours each night, 6 nights each week. By the 18th month of my playing I was able to sing and play without my guitar playing falling apart... So... keep practicing and have fun!!
__________________
Epiphone AJ 10, Taylor 110ce, Fender DG8, Dean BW6 Banjo, Art and Lutherie Legacy, PRS SE Custom Angelus, Ibanez Artcore AS53, Recording King Mandolin
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-02-2020, 11:50 AM
JMW01 JMW01 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: DFW
Posts: 432
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jschmitz54 View Post
I’ve just past two years of playing acoustic guitar. I have a difficult time playing and singing. If I sing my playing, especially my pick hand has trouble strumming or picking correctly. I can’t seem to keep the correct strumming pattern. I also don’t seem to be able to project my voice and often find myself singing the strumming pattern instead of the correct melody. How do you sing and project your voice to the best of your ability and do your best playing at the same time and why is this so difficult for me?
There is one exception and that is Neil Young’s Old Man which I started learning early in my journey and have reached a certain level of competence playing and singing at the same time so I know it can be done.
Is this common? Are there any exercises to help? Wondering what others experiences have been like in this regard.
Print out the lyrics and then make a mark (underneath the words) for each down beat. Then you know what word you should be singing or not singing on each down beat. It will help you place the melody at the correct point in the rhythm and get your timing down.

Last edited by JMW01; 07-02-2020 at 04:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-02-2020, 11:57 AM
jrb715 jrb715 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,209
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3notes View Post
This is why I strongly believe in producing..... Original music. Why copy Neil Young.?? Already been done a million times. And the versions are NEVER better than the original. Doesn't matter the song.

People, the world needs more ORIGINAL music. To the OP.... Write and play your own music. That's what will work best for you.
Strange advice I think, for a few reasons:

1. The OP is struggling to sing and play right now. It seems unlikely to me that he can just jump into writing Neil Young quality tunes.

2. In my experience, covers by fine singers are OFTEN better or as good as the original. I love Delbert McClinton, but the world wouldn't be quite as much fun without Emmylou Harris covering "Two More Bottles of Wine" or Merle Haggard covering "Thank Heaven for Little Girls" or Jimi Hendrix covering "All Along the Watchtower" or The Beatles or Vince Gill or Jennifer Hudson or James Taylor or Bonnie Raitt or Chris Stapleton covering all sorts of stuff.

3. And you don't have to be a star to sing another's song with a sincerity and truthfulness that makes it a valuable and memorable moment for both you and those who hear you.

And, yes it's of great value to write new music: but I've learned that I don't want to necessarily hear all of that new music. So, if one writes original songs and plays them for others, you should be skilled and/or original.

Last edited by jrb715; 07-02-2020 at 01:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-02-2020, 12:02 PM
rllink's Avatar
rllink rllink is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Midwest
Posts: 4,179
Default

It is in the mind. I have friends that struggle with it. It has been my observation of the people I know that have trouble with singing and playing is that they think that singing is accompaniment for the guitar, which is backward thinking. Instead, guitar is accompaniment for the song. I have not experienced that inability and I think it is because from the very beginning I knew that I wanted to sing songs and that the instrument, whatever it is, is there to support the song. I play the guitar because I want to sing and my singing dictates the strum pattern, the rhythm, the timing, everything revolves around the singing. I suggest trying to think of it in those terms and see what happens.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-02-2020, 03:46 PM
HodgdonExtreme HodgdonExtreme is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,607
Default

Until about a year or so ago - I couldn't sing and play anything. Now, I'm able to do it for most all the songs I know. I've now even manged to tackle much more difficult finger picking tunes such as Dead Flowers by Townes Van Zandt and Don't Think Twice by Bob Dylan/Peter Paul Mary.

Now, the cowboy chord campfire songs are a breeze, generally speaking. I even surprised and amused my girlfriend (and myself!) a couple weeks ago making up a song about her on the fly. NEVER thought I'd be able to do that.

Here is the advice I have to offer on the subject:

First, understand some tunes have a WAY more complex marriage between the musical rhythm and the lyrics. You've gotta start with something simple. You want a tune in basic 4/4 timing, with lyrics that have each syllable matching up with whole, half or quarter notes. Eighth notes is much too advanced at first, as is a tune with triplets or other more complex guitar accompaniment.

Learn how to mentally keep up with the cadence of the tune. Start as remedial as required, be it tapping out the rhythm with your foot, paying attention to the metronome while you play, and being able to concentrate on the timing of the metronome and keeping with it.

Advance to the point where can can SAY "one and two and three and four and" while you play the tune in time.

Find a version of the tune you like on youtube or a CD or whatever that you can play along with. Play along with it a lot. Get to the point where you can sing at least ONE word along with the singer. Advance to a few words. From there it'll come quickly.

When I started learning to play Dead Flowers by TVZ, being able to sing it wasn't even on my radar - I didn't think it would ever be possible. Learning the fingerstyle pattern took some serious practice. By the time I had it about 90% down, the rhythym/timing of the tune was so engrained that adding the lyrics almost came easily. It wasn't but another week or two before I could sing/play it.

Keep with it and keep it fun - else you won't practice it!
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 07-02-2020, 03:54 PM
mlbman mlbman is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 240
Default

Your enemy will be frustration. Don’t let frustration win. I think a key is to make it fun, practice as slow as you need to and come to this forum frequently to help with motivation. A great group of people here. I learn something everytime I visit here. Bottom line: stay with it, you can do this and from my experience learning to play basic guitar has been a treasure in my life.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 07-02-2020, 03:57 PM
menhir menhir is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,208
Default

What works for me is learning and rehearsing my guitar playing close to the point where I'm not thinking my way through the chord changes or arrangement, maybe mumbling or humming the tune to myself as I go to get a feel for the proper key for me, too.

When I can play the song by heart, then I start devoting time to polish the lyrics and singing.
__________________
Pray, Hope, and Don't Worry - Padre Pio
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 07-02-2020, 03:57 PM
Goodallboy Goodallboy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: East TN
Posts: 6,847
Default

Ok, practice, sure that’s a safe bit of advice. Let’s try another approach.

Forget something called a “strumming pattern”. Allow yourself more freedom to interpret the ebb and flow of the song. You are playing a rhythm instrument that should do more than brush across the strings, up and down, saying nothing.

The pick needs to pick out notes, individual notes, as it makes it’s way across the strings. You mentioned Neil Young and if you hadn’t I would have. He’s the best example I can think of that illustrates there’s no strumming pattern with an accomplished guitar player, it’s a weaving together of melody and rhythm.

Needle and The Damage Done will be a great song for you to learn because it will force you to stop strumming and begin picking. There’s where the magic happens and the door opens to sounding like yourself instead of everybody else.
__________________
McCollum Grand Auditorum Euro Spruce/Brazilian
PRS Hollowbody Spruce
PRS SC58
Giffin Vikta
Gibson Custom Shop ES 335 '59 Historic RI
‘91 Les Paul Standard
‘52 AVRI Tele - Richie Baxt build
Fender American Deluxe Tele
Fender Fat Strat
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-02-2020, 04:02 PM
Eryc74 Eryc74 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Boston -MA
Posts: 83
Default

Get an inexpensive 8 track. Record your playing and then work through singing the song to fit the tune as you played it.

You'll find you learn more about playing and singing.

That or just gut it out till you get it. But if you can sing the song with the radio, you can sing it with the guitar. You just need to work out the arrangements and put in the time with signing too as you have with playing.

It will come.
__________________
Martin HD-28V 2018
Bourgeois OO Country Boy 2020
Bourgeois OM Vintage Deluxe Limited Edition
Martin HD12-28 Custom 2019
Takamine Sante Fe 1990
Fender Stratocaster
Fender Telecaster
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 07-02-2020, 06:49 PM
3notes 3notes is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: West of the Mississippi
Posts: 1,288
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrb715 View Post
Strange advice I think, for a few reasons:

1. The OP is struggling to sing and play right now. It seems unlikely to me that he can just jump into writing Neil Young quality tunes.

2. In my experience, covers by fine singers are OFTEN better or as good as the original. I love Delbert McClinton, but the world wouldn't be quite as much fun without Emmylou Harris covering "Two More Bottles of Wine" or Merle Haggard covering "Thank Heaven for Little Girls" or Jimi Hendrix covering "All Along the Watchtower" or The Beatles or Vince Gill or Jennifer Hudson or James Taylor or Bonnie Raitt or Chris Stapleton covering all sorts of stuff.

3. And you don't have to be a star to sing another's song with a sincerity and truthfulness that makes it a valuable and memorable moment for both you and those who hear you.

And, yes it's of great value to write new music: but I've learned that I don't want to necessarily hear all of that new music. So, if one writes original songs and plays them for others, you should be skilled and/or original.
Every artist you mention here has(had) built their career on writing and singing their own original music. Songs they've covered are few in comparison. I'm not sure why you didn't include the Grateful Dead.?? Bob Dylan said they play Dylan songs better than I can. Yet, they have tons of original music and that's what the Heads wanted to hear.

This thread isn't about that. The OP is struggling to cover songs that others have wrote. I'm saying to the OP … Play your own songs. By doing so it will keep him/her in the realm of what he can play on guitar and the same with vocals. It's a lot easier to sing your own lyrics.

I don't pass this on as professionalism. I pass it on as a stay at home guitar player who would rather cook his own eggs than have someone cook them for me. See the analogy here.?? Trust me, if I can do it anyone can.

Original music is very rewarding. Sad that you think that's strange. Or did you call my post strange.?? I forgot. I'll call you jrb #6626640. The world needs original music. Don't knock it. Its for everyone.
__________________
Play it Pretty

Last edited by 3notes; 07-02-2020 at 06:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=