#1
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Solo fingerstyle - to pan or not to pan?
Please correct or clarify for me. Panning an acoustic guitar is a tool to use when the guitar has to properly “sit” in the mix with other instruments or a vocalist.
My current recording setup is a spaced pair of mics, each plugged into the input of a Scarlett 2i4, running into Reaper as two separate inputs recording as two tracks in stereo. Panning on each track during recording is centered. In post processing, is there any reason to pan the mics? I’ve played around with panning them 75% to 100% and while it sounds like a bit more space and breath, there is a significant drop in volume. I did a search about this and just about every reference to panning is specific to panning the guitar to place it properly in the mix with a vocalist or other instruments. Thanks in advance for educating me.
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Doerr Trinity 12 Fret 00 (Lutz/Maple) Edwinson Zephyr 13 Fret 00 (Adi/Coco) Froggy Bottom H-12 (Adi/EIR) Kostal 12 Fret OMC (German Spruce/Koa) Rainsong APSE 12 Fret (Carbon Fiber) Taylor 812ce-N 12 fret (Sitka/EIR Nylon) |
#2
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First the no, the term "sit in the mix" is usually referring to having the element not stand out as being noticeably forward (front to back) in the sound stage compared to the rest of the element/instruments (and is usually a function of level and compression) The Yes , panning can be used to separate individual elements/instruments in a mix by positioning them left to right in the sound stage. Quote:
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Enjoy the Journey.... Kev... KevWind at Soundcloud KevWind at YouYube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD System : Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1 Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Sonoma 14.4 Last edited by KevWind; 01-09-2021 at 09:41 AM. |
#3
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KevWind,
I think you just cleared me up on a basic setup issue. I’ve been bringing both mics into a single Track with the Input shown as Stereo (i.e. the Track Input shows Input 1 and Input 2 together). I should have been using Mono for each mic for the recording so mic 1 is Track 1 is Mono Input 1 and Mic 2 is Track 2 is Mono Input 2. Than after getting the recording, I pan one mic L and one mic R and set the Master Mix Output to Stereo (correct?). These are rookie mistakes, thanks for your time.
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Doerr Trinity 12 Fret 00 (Lutz/Maple) Edwinson Zephyr 13 Fret 00 (Adi/Coco) Froggy Bottom H-12 (Adi/EIR) Kostal 12 Fret OMC (German Spruce/Koa) Rainsong APSE 12 Fret (Carbon Fiber) Taylor 812ce-N 12 fret (Sitka/EIR Nylon) |
#4
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Derek Coombs Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs "Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love To be that we hold so dear A voice from heavens above |
#5
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50% L/50% R is a bit too much stereo spread for me. I bring them in around 10 and 2 o'clock.
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#6
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#7
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I alway pan 100% hard left and right. (Talking here about 2 mics recorded to 2 individual mono tracks) Panning both tracks inward results in phase cancellation and a tonal change (which admittedly could be a sound someone likes, but I don't). If the sound is too wide, you have lots of choices of mic placement to address that - use XY, or ORTF, (including changing the mic angle) or bring spaced pairs in closer together. Distance from the guitar also affects stereo width.
If you record to a stereo track, the panning control (on my DAW, at least) is really just raising or lowering one side, not mixing the two together. The mics will always be panned hard left and right automatically. You can test this easily by turning off one speaker and listening to what the pan control does.
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Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
#8
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There is a good pan law discussion, HERE. The basics of two-mic, two-channel operation is that a properly recorded signal should allow you to adjust the panning of the two channels in or out to balance the amount of stereo interest vs. the strength of you center image. Weak center image? Pan both channels inboard a little at a time to strengthen it.
Bob
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"It is said, 'Go not to the elves for counsel for they will say both no and yes.' " Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion, The Fellowship of the Ring THE MUSICIAN'S ROOM (my website) |
#9
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While Theoretically there should be no difference for the panning between two mono tracks or one stereo track and in some DAWs there is virtually no difference. However in Reaper specifically the way it handles panning in a stereo track, is frankly IMO unintuitive, cumbersome, confusing, and just plain goofy. And perhaps why you are having issues if you check out this video you will see why That embed looks funny if it is not working for you try this link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13uY9H64v2Y
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Enjoy the Journey.... Kev... KevWind at Soundcloud KevWind at YouYube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD System : Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1 Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Sonoma 14.4 Last edited by KevWind; 01-09-2021 at 12:49 PM. |
#10
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Here's three samples I did to let me hear the differences. In each sample the song and guitar, mics, mic recording levels, and DAW master volume level are all the same. Also, in each sample, a HPF is used at approximately 100hz.
One sample is two mics into a single stereo track, pan centered One sample is two mics to two mono tracks, one mic pan left 50%, one mic pan right 50% One sample is two mics to two mono tracks, one mic pan left 100%, one mic pan right 100% The single stereo track and the dual mono tracks L/R 100% pan sound similar in stereo width or effect but produce different sound levels for the master volume setting. The sample with the dual mono tracks L/R 50% pan has the highest volume but sounds harsher with less stereo effect/width. I like the dual mono tracks with L/R 100% pan the most all else equal.
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Doerr Trinity 12 Fret 00 (Lutz/Maple) Edwinson Zephyr 13 Fret 00 (Adi/Coco) Froggy Bottom H-12 (Adi/EIR) Kostal 12 Fret OMC (German Spruce/Koa) Rainsong APSE 12 Fret (Carbon Fiber) Taylor 812ce-N 12 fret (Sitka/EIR Nylon) |
#11
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My DAW (Reaper) does the same as what Doug mentions in panning a stereo track with two mics recorded on it.
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Doerr Trinity 12 Fret 00 (Lutz/Maple) Edwinson Zephyr 13 Fret 00 (Adi/Coco) Froggy Bottom H-12 (Adi/EIR) Kostal 12 Fret OMC (German Spruce/Koa) Rainsong APSE 12 Fret (Carbon Fiber) Taylor 812ce-N 12 fret (Sitka/EIR Nylon) |
#12
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For stereo recording of solo acoustic guitar I set things up similar to what Doug explained for a spaced pair (A-B) mic setup.
I record each mic as a separate mono track. On playback, and for rendering, I pan one track hard (100%) left and the other track hard (100%) right. To get the width of the stereo field that I like I will adjust the distance between the mics (and distance from the guitar to the mics) prior to recording. It's a bit more work to get things set up, but for those that want to minimize the phasing effect (causing comb filtering) it's a way to do it. For spaced pair setups some folks will space their mics apart quite a distance. Then on playback they either pan one track hard left and other track hard right (if they want to keep the stereo width as was recorded). If they don't want the stereo field to be so wide, they will move the pan knobs toward center.
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Chuck 2012 Carruth 12-fret 000 in Pernambuco and Adi 2010 Poling Sierra in Cuban Mahogany and Lutz 2015 Posch 13-fret 00 in Indian Rosewood and Adi Last edited by ChuckS; 01-09-2021 at 03:28 PM. |
#13
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Recording to 2 mono tracks just makes it simpler if after recording you decide to pan inward some amount.
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Chuck 2012 Carruth 12-fret 000 in Pernambuco and Adi 2010 Poling Sierra in Cuban Mahogany and Lutz 2015 Posch 13-fret 00 in Indian Rosewood and Adi |
#14
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BOTH SIDES NOW 2 TR MONO MIX HPF PAN 100% L - R sounds the best. There will an especially noticeable difference when mic'ing
in a spaced pair configuration versus some coincident mic'ing setup.
__________________
Derek Coombs Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs "Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love To be that we hold so dear A voice from heavens above |
#15
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On DAWs I'm familiar with, when you record to a stereo track, the "pan" control simply adjusts the volume of one side or the other, it doesn't make the stereo image narrower or wider, it just shifts it left or right. So I think people are talking about two different things. For recording to stereo tracks, I try to balance the mic levels from the beginning, but if I need to adjust them slightly during mix down, the pan/balance control is one way to do it.
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Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |