Which Luthiers Have the Best Braz Sets?

[Don Lampson]

Originally Posted by TwinDad

Hello!

I’m on a quest for a “grail” guitar and I’ve settled on a Dread with Brazilian back and sides and an Adi top. (Big surprise I know

I’m thinking of commissioning my guitar in 1-3 years but I’m trying to figure Out the pricing for the boutique market and weather the pricing matches the quality of the tone woods being used essentially. For example, I’ve been tracking Santa Cruz guitars for a long time and even visited a dealer to try a few out but my lord the prices sure are high! I know SC commands major respect but is their price reflective of the superiority of their Brazilian compared to say H&D, Bourgeois, or other reputable luthiers who offer a similar product in terms of materials. (I know the builds are different etc)

What I’m really looking for is to being able to commission an heirloom guitar where I know the BR I get is a good to great set and not the dregs.

I’d also appreciate tips on how to evaluate the look and texture of BR for quality and durability. I already know how to identify quarter sawn vs slab but is there anything else I should keep an eye out for when picking a luthier and/or a set of BR?

Much thanks to anyone looking to join me on my very enjoyable, middle-aged quest to land a grail guitar for my family to hold on to for at least a couple of generations worth of playing.

TwinDad

If BRW has such a powerful hold on your imagination, the person to talk to is Dexter Johnson. He's supplied BRW sets to Santa Cruz, Collings, and numerous other, top rate builders. He's 1st class builder himself, but specializes mostly in Mandolins....

Back in the late 60s, he went down to Brazil, and got a job in a cabinet shop. While working there, he scouted out prime BRW, and cut hundreds of sets for building, during his employment. He returned in the 70s, did the same thing again, and married a Brazilian architect. I doubt there's anyone in the US knows more about BRW, than him?

He's built a few hundred guitars, & mandolins, ran a music store, then became the booking agent for David Grisman. He builds incredible instruments. I believe you can still contact him @ Carmel Music Co? He also hangs out at the mandolin cafe, from time to time....

Don

[koolimy]

I'm not sure if you have already done so, but if you have not, I would check out some dealers that have a large selection of boutique/luthier built guitars, and a large collection of soundbytes for such guitar, such as:


Dreamguitars

Eddies Guitars


Guitar Gallery

The North American Guitar

A problem with a lot of these sites is that they probably don't play in your style, as most of the soundbytes are fingerstyle, but I think you could get a good idea of what builders are out there, what they offer, and a general idea of the builders' sounds.

I listened to a ton of these soundbytes when I was selecting the body style and woods for a kit guitar that I was building, and I would echo the recommendations you received to pick the builder first, and be open to other woods.

When I listened to a ton of the clips, I found that a lot of the "wood wisdom" went out the window. I found that I could find a guitar that seems to have the good qualities of BRW, namely good bass and bell like highs, nice overtones, good responsiveness and projection, with almost ANY type of wood. I could also find BRW guitars (or any B&S wood guitar for that matter) that sounded just good, or a bit mediocre compared to its peers. It really showed to me that it's what the builder does with the wood that's important, not necessarily the wood itself.

Also, it is my opinion that the supremacy of BRW is a bit theoretical, rather than absolute. It is true that BRW has on average good qualities for guitar building. However, to me the builder's voicing and construction determine the final sound of the guitar. Material choice is a big part of that voicing, but it is definitely only a part. You could think of a chef choosing ingredients to make a great dish. Of course choosing fresh, high quality ingredients is important in making the tasty meal. But in the end, the dish's taste will much more depend on the chef's ability rather than the ingredients. A great chef will likely be able to make a delicious dish out of your normal grocery store ingredients, while a normal person could make a dish out of the highest quality wagyu and truffles that tastes like garbage.

Finally, you said that you want a "cannon" of a guitar. To me, that could imply that you want a guitar with a lot of projection. In that case, you might be asking for a guitar with a "reflective back," rather than a "live back." A live back is a back that sacrifices some power but adds a bit of color of its own to the sound. A reflective back is generally made stiffer so that the top can best do its work in projecting the sound. The reflective back will thus add a bit less color to the sound and you may be not getting the full benefit of the BRW goodness. If projection is your main concern, you might be able to get a similar sound/look/mojo by going with a much cheaper wood.

[lowrider]

If it were me, I'd spend my money on getting the best guitar, not getting the best Brazillian Rosewood. I'd pay my premium on getting one of the top luthiers and then take their advice on which wood to use.

Im my opinion, it would be a waste to pay a huge premium for Brazillian and then use a second teir builder.

Good Luck!

[M Sarad]

Since I already owned three Brazilian equipped guitars, I requested Wenge after reading that both Sobell and Somogyi were using it as an alternative.

All of my Brazilian guitars have different tops: Sitka, Adirondack, and German Spruce. Each sounds different.

Brazilian is pretty and for me unaffordable in the current market. The Brazilian in my 38 year old Santa Cruz was a $450 add on, or about 23% up charge. Today that Brazilian would be $10,000, about 55% up charge.

My most recent guitars are Mahogany and Walnut. Affordable and pleasing to the eyes and ears.

[Yrksman]

Originally Posted by Iain1231

You can consider Taylor's BTO Brazilian. An alternative would be Tom Sands, who might be able to build you a custom build according to your specifications

Tom Sands, Jim Olson. Kevin Ryan, Kathy Wingert, Ralph Bown, Simon Fay, Joel Michaud and many many more great luthiers.

Listen to as many as you can.

[Silly Moustache]

Just to reconsider,

When we talk about tone woods, wqe sometimes get a little confused by two/three qualities, i.e.,

1. tone.
2. Cosmetic appearance,
3. aging/preparation - i.e drying - kiln, air, torrification etc.
4. hand / factory thicknessing - i.e the luthier's individual skill/style.

These don't all go together.

As musicians, we "should be" all about tone.
As collectors/acquirers, we love to see siliking, grain spacing, grain patters etc.
As long term usuers we should be thinking about stability.

I have some fine American built guitars, but I mostly buy used, and long ago decided to ignore the colour/grain/pattern in the woods, as long as it generally lookked OK.

I won't buy BRW or Madagascar for personal conscience reasons, (like I wouldn't buy TS, ivory, wild animal fur, or blood diamonds.

I do think that adi has something a tiny bit extra over sitka, but not enough to pay extra.

I WILL and have paid extra for a product that has been hand selected with the top thicknessed not to a standard but to what is appropriate to that piece (or at least as determined by Bruce Van Wart at Collings!)

However, I am still a lover of beautiful guitars and plain ol' dark stained EIR or hog, or even maple will do me fine if the sound that comes out of the hole in front sounds good.

That's it from me on the issue, at ease, dismiss, smoke if you got 'em!

[Ovation1]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Just to reconsider,

When we talk about tone woods, wqe sometimes get a little confused by two/three qualities, i.e.,

1. tone.
2. Cosmetic appearance,
3. aging/preparation - i.e drying - kiln, air, torrification etc.
4. hand / factory thicknessing - i.e the luthier's individual skill/style.

These don't all go together.

As musicians, we "should be" all about tone.
As collectors/acquirers, we love to see siliking, grain spacing, grain patters etc.
As long term usuers we should be thinking about stability.

I have some fine American built guitars, but I mostly buy used, and long ago decided to ignore the colour/grain/pattern in the woods, as long as it generally lookked OK.

I won't buy BRW or Madagascar for personal conscience reasons, (like I wouldn't buy TS, ivory, wild animal fur, or blood diamonds.

I do think that adi has something a tiny bit extra over sitka, but not enough to pay extra.

I WILL and have paid extra for a product that has been hand selected with the top thicknessed not to a standard but to what is appropriate to that piece (or at least as determined by Bruce Van Wart at Collings!)

However, I am still a lover of beautiful guitars and plain ol' dark stained EIR or hog, or even maple will do me fine if the sound that comes out of the hole in front sounds good.

That's it from me on the issue, at ease, dismiss, smoke if you got 'em!

Great post! Thank you

[mmasters]

You could also hunt for a 50s/60s Martin D-28 that has the quality BRW and sound. They don't all sound good but if you hunt around you can find one with a good sound. Only thing is it will be overbuilt and Sitka spruce (not Adirondack). Then again if you find one that has that tone but you think it would be better with an Adirondack top you could send it to Martin and have them re-top it with Adirondack. This would be called a conversion. Sometimes Martin is willing to do them, sometimes not. Conversions also come up for sale occasionally at places like Carter Vintage and Elderly. They typically are in the 20K range.

[Tony Burns]

Thats a tough call , you would almost need to contact them weekly to find this out .

.....
Vote- it makes a difference !

[tippy5]

I have never played one but Jeff Traugott builds a lot of great handmade guitars. I heard he bought a large stash of Brazilian years ago. I have listened to many vids over the years with my Rokit 8 speakers and his guitars have a consistent, strong voice. So many Brazilian guitars don't sound special to me.


Then there's a great James Goodall GC for half the price:

https://youtu.be/neLe7N9b-1Y?t=180

[Mocha Joe]

Originally Posted by Don Lampson

If BRW has such a powerful hold on your imagination, the person to talk to is Dexter Johnson. He's supplied BRW sets to Santa Cruz, Collings, and numerous other, top rate builders. He's 1st class builder himself, but specializes mostly in Mandolins....

Back in the late 60s, he went down to Brazil, and got a job in a cabinet shop. While working there, he scouted out prime BRW, and cut hundreds of sets for building, during his employment. He returned in the 70s, did the same thing again, and married a Brazilian architect. I doubt there's anyone in the US knows more about BRW, than him?

He's built a few hundred guitars, & mandolins, ran a music store, then became the booking agent for David Grisman. He builds incredible instruments. I believe you can still contact him @ Carmel Music Co? He also hangs out at the mandolin cafe, from time to time....

Don

+1 -- I had a Collings that Dexter had supplied the BRZ for and sold through Carmel Music about 15 years ago. Absolutely stunning looking back and sides. I ended up letting it go in order to chase something new (mistake on my part). He is a great guy too.