What is needed for online concerts?

[phcorrigan]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

It seems that Zoom is yet to discover the invention of checkboxes :-) but hopefully that does help.

By the way, I was just on a Zoom call which reminds me that people do need to be aware that if they use High Fidelity Music mode and turn on the Original Sound option, *everyone* with a mic needs to be using headphones. The new features puts Zoom in full-duplex, which means everything is live all the time, resulting in overwhelming echo if people are using speakers. In the session I was just in, with about 20 people, it only took a couple of people not wearing headphones to pretty much destroy everything in an avalanche of echo.

Keeping original sound off, turning it on only when you are the only one playing and every one else is muted, helps as well.

[phcorrigan]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

The latest Zoom works well, as long as you have the internet bandwidth for it.

One thing that can help with this is to turn off video while playing. Not the optimum solution, but sometimes necessary.

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I've switched to using eCamm...

The problem with eCamm is that it's Apple only, so it leaves out Windows and Android users.

[MikeBmusic]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

It seems that Zoom is yet to discover the invention of checkboxes :-) but hopefully that does help.

By the way, I was just on a Zoom call which reminds me that people do need to be aware that if they use High Fidelity Music mode and turn on the Original Sound option, *everyone* with a mic needs to be using headphones. The new features puts Zoom in full-duplex, which means everything is live all the time, resulting in overwhelming echo if people are using speakers. In the session I was just in, with about 20 people, it only took a couple of people not wearing headphones to pretty much destroy everything in an avalanche of echo.

Actually, people need to use the 'echo cancellation' feature on 'auto'. (And don't check the box to disable echo cancellation when using hi-fidelity/original sound).

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by MikeBmusic

Actually, people need to use the 'echo cancellation' feature on 'auto'. (And don't check the box to disable echo cancellation when using hi-fidelity/original sound).

Yeah, the main issue is too many options :-) It's fine with small groups - I just taught a lesson this morning with hi-fidelity on with no issues. But get 20 people on, and add in confusion about the options, and it only takes 1 person to mess up, and no one's sure who it is causing the problem - and everyone's talking and echoing at once. Chaos, and no one can hear well enough to get instructions. Everyone on different platforms, lots of "I don't see that button", etc, etc.

When teaching group workshops, I just mute everyone except me, and they can press the space bar to talk, and that works fine too.

In any case, for online concerts rather than group meetings, it shouldn't be as bad, if just one person has a live mic, or if you're just using Zoom to stream to facebook or you tube.

[MikeBmusic]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Yeah, the main issue is too many options :-)

I just got a Zoom notice about a new update available, so going to to have to dig to see what they've done NOW! I have Zoom open mics scheduled for the next 3 nights.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Yeah, the main issue is too many options :-) .

Hi Doug…

This is just a FYI (for your information) post…

I attend a large Zoom group which meets daily (has for over 250 days in a row for 3 hours a day) of around 30 panelists seen onscreen who have active mic/camera capability, and another 130-150 attendees. First hour is show-up, light chat, and mic-check. Second and third hours are to answer questions submitted daily by attendees. This group is free, and accessible. I waited to post this till the thread kind of started to run out of steam.

It's mostly made up of very techy people, including a good number number of professional musicians, Educational IT people, a person who live-streams football games & weddings, camera (video and still) operators, a programmer who is in charge of some of the screens in Times Square (NYC), a company owner who sells high tech equipment, etc. and some musicians who perform regularly online with Zoom and YouTube simultaneously. Many manage high-tech for others who are holding online-events.

The group has a Discord group offline, and the members meet and assist one another regularly. It is an international group with regulars from Europe, USA, Australia, India and Indonesia.

Once every month they bring in a semi-popular singer/musician who spends an hour with the group, singing, taking technical questions, and chatting with the group (both asked live and submitted).

This group has come to love the 'too many options' that Zoom has. The reach of the group is about 350-400 people daily, and then with extended watching on YouTube, of course it's higher.

They have raised the informed level of attenders and users considerably, and regularly answer basic and very advanced technical questions (some over and over and over). They don't claim to be experts, but they ARE experts. Some have been involved (and continue to be) with large online events.

With this large a group (125-150 live average daily), a crew has been developed from within the group
…someone screens & reads submitted questions aloud
…someone else 'cuts' the performance (changing view/cameras for the 'audience')
…someone hosts the meeting.
…everyone but the host mutes and raises hands till called on to comment

We have a sound man (who works in the movie industry as a sound specialist)…

We have a sound check 20 minutes before the main meeting and all the people with mics have to set their mic to a meter (which is onscreen). They turn off the built-in Chat, and use an external Chat tool (the same one used for the Dolby Atomos online conference last fall). Most panelists use backgrounds and better than average lights (simple but effective).

RULES…yup we have rules.
Cameras must be on, and actual names are required. It's rules are very similar to this forum. Clean meeting, no discussion of controversial topics, no flaming-rants-etc.

This group is anticipating that online performance, schooling, business is going to stay even when the ability to go live returns, so they are preparing and exploring internet for performing, meetings, conferencing, private meetings etc. with heavy (and regular) emphasis on sound, video, and streaming.

They have chosen Zoom for the features, and the responsiveness to customers and features which are implemented.

Many of the key members are online daily (all day long) nationally and internationally, and are beyond conversant with all the current streaming platforms since they do not always choose the platform they use. We have at least half-dozen folks involved in online church streaming.

For personal use they all come back to Zoom.

This informational too-long post is only to point out that there is at least one major group of pro and amateur users who are pursuing professional-level-online-presence.

[Doug Young]

Hey Larry, that sounds like you have a pretty sophisticated group. Lots of options are good for power users, for sure. The train wreck I observed last weekend was a pretty unsophisticated bunch, with a 1-hour open mic. They wouldn't want to spend an hour getting everything worked out. It is a group that plans to meet each month, maybe some time spent 1-1 with each person would help, not sure I'm up for volunteering tho :-).

But there's always lots of confusion in these situations - just as there is at live open mic where people show up with dead batteries, broken pickups, etc, etc. The main issue I note with Zoom is the rather poor interface for how they present the options. It's "fun" (not really) to see the total bewilderment on faces as you explain that you have original sound on when the button says "turn off" and off when it says "turn on". Not to mention - what the heck is "original sound"? To make it more complicated, what that button actually does depends on other options buried under the advanced settings. Bad design. But I've made it work fine for cases where I'm in control. I just observe the issues many people have with it, often in situations where there's no time to slowly walk each person thru the issue. There should be a Zoom class for musicians! (I do know of at least one that has been done)

For streaming, as opposed to group meetings, I've been using eCamm, which puts the controls in the hands of the host, and doesn't force the guests to do anything with the software. Even with that, there are more than enough issues. I just did a streaming show this past weekend, round robin with 3 performers, streamed to facebook. I spent 3 hours with the performers in the week before, plus a 1/2 hour last minute sound check. Even with sophisticated users, there were plenty of things to deal with, but nothing to do with the actual software. What took time was working thru hardware/interface/computer issues - why aren't my headphones working? How do I turn configure direct monitoring on my interface so the output doesn't echo back into the input, but I can still hear myself? Why is the sound distorting? and so on. Everyone has different gear, most of which I've not seen, so we were reading manuals online, trying things, lots of "can you hear me now?", etc. In the end, the prep paid off and the show went smoothly. Next month, I'll be joined by new performers and we'll do it all again :-)

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Hey Larry, that sounds like you have a pretty sophisticated group.

For streaming, as opposed to group meetings, I've been using eCamm, which puts the controls in the hands of the host, and doesn't force the guests to do anything with the software. Even with that, there are more than enough issues. I just did a streaming show this past weekend, round robin with 3 performers, streamed to facebook. I spent 3 hours with the performers in the week before, plus a 1/2 hour last minute sound check. Even with sophisticated users, there were plenty of things to deal with…

Hi Doug
Yes, they are. Guests (many from major corporations) are surprised that they are often sub-par to the rest of the group.

I think the platform (direct to YouTube or FaceBook) versus Zoom is allowing a visible and active fan interaction.

I agree…I have been being the tech to a small group weekly, and my gear is setup an hour early, tested out, and the leader shows up early, and we mic check him.

For musicians the challenge of being online and realizing sound is more important than most think (they have no clue how poor their gear sounds going out over the inter-webs).

And the lights and video are a challenge for musicians too. And they think they can just turn on the computer, hit the 'go' button and it's going to work well.

But musicians have proven inventive and creative, so I'm guessing that we'll all get better at it.

I like your round-robins by the way. Well done.

[MikeBmusic]

Just to mess with people's heads, the latest Zoom update has added a bunch of 'features'/options in the audio settings menu.
Not everyone has got the update yet, and it may only have been released to Windows users.
The biggest sound quality issue is the 'echo cancellation' feature. In its original form, for best music sound, you wanted EC off. Now it needs to be on, at least when people are talking and everyone has their mics unmuted, otherwise the inherent latency causes an echo from a person's speakers-to-mic loop if they do not have EC on. You can immediately hear it when someone joins and doesn't have it on as suddenly everyone has echoes - except the person who doesn't have EC on - and they don't hear it, either! Of course using earbuds or headphones negates the echo, too.
Trying to walk someone through the menu options is hard if they don't have the same device you do, or if they have not had the latest update/GUI change.

[phcorrigan]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Doug…

This is just a FYI (for your information) post…

I have so many questions:

Originally Posted by ljguitar

...and some musicians who perform regularly online with Zoom and YouTube simultaneously.

Any details on how this is being done?

Originally Posted by ljguitar

We have a sound check 20 minutes before the main meeting and all the people with mics have to set their mic to a meter (which is onscreen).

Again, how is this being done, and what is the meter software being used for the sound check?

Originally Posted by ljguitar

They turn off the built-in Chat, and use an external Chat tool (the same one used for the Dolby Atomos online conference last fall).

Do have a name and/or a link for this software?

Thanks. This is a very informative post!

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by phcorrigan

Any details on how this is being done?

The easiest way is to use restream.io or a few other similar services. I had something cobbled together using eCamm and OBS to do it on my last streaming show, but a last minute OBS update seemed to break it.

Again, how is this being done, and what is the meter software being used for the sound check?

Zoom and eCamm both have (very) basic level meters, but if you're expecting a DAW-like interface, I don't know of anything out there right now that does that. I did sound checks the old fashioned way - just listening. If one person seems too loud, tell them to turn down, or vice-versa. Depending on your setup, you might be able to do little better. I'm using my Apollo interface, for example, so I could bring up Logic, route the sound from Zoom or EÇamm into it and bring up meters in Logic. It wouldn't be multi-track, tho, just overall sound, so you could have one person play, check levels, then the next, etc. Not sure it's worth the hassle compared to just listening.

It'd be nice, and maybe someday we'll get there, to have a mixer-board kind of interface where a 3rd person could act as the sound man. eCamm sort of has that for the video side, but the audio control is very weak (mute and volume only).

[phcorrigan]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I had something cobbled together using eCamm...

My understanding is that eCamm is Apple only, which leaves many of us out.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by phcorrigan

I have so many questions:

Hi Patrick
If one goes to the setting sections in Zoom (on the web-registered page of your personal Zoom account) one of the options is streaming out simultaneously to FaceBook and YouTube. It may even be found in the clients app. This group is using the Zoom Webinar client, not the general one. Attendees and participants are just using standard Zoom client.

The Chat software is called Mukana and was developed by Alex Lindsay who is working on a way to release it…he has been developing, improving and refining it for over 10 years. He uses it with conferences he is doing the background work on (all the internet streaming of conferences, camera work, mics, etc). He has used it with online gatherings of over a thousand attendees at once (at which point he has a team of people who consolidate and forward questions to the host).

The meter is…
Waves WLM Plus Loudness Meter Plug-in - CLiCk

They bring it into the Zoom meeting just like another participant (actually they use Webinar version of Zoom). We soundcheck set everybody to -24LUFS (within a point or two - it's a moving target while people speak). Trying to get people to speak naturally and continuously for 5-10 seconds at a steady rate while watching the meters is a challenge (and not just counting numbers or reciting the alphabet). But it's good practice in learning how to communicate better online.

Because of internet delay, it takes the meters a couple seconds to actually start showing up on the meters. Every participant, except the host, is ALWAYS muted during the entire meeting until they raise their physical hand and are recognized by the host. Sound checks are done one person at a time (there are rarely more than 25 participants in the main room), and by a person who is a sound specialist on movies (Mickey Macachor - from the Philippines). He is a sound engineer who works on movie and reality TV shows as a sound engineer.

The meetings can be found on YouTube under 'Alex Lindsay' who owns the program and account. It is called Office Hours and this is the generic link they send out every day to join via Zoom…

Join via Zoom registration - CliCk

Hope this answers at least some of the questions…

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by phcorrigan

My understanding is that eCamm is Apple only, which leaves many of us out.

I imagine there are similar windows options. eCamm only streams to one place. But it does provide a "webcam" output. So all I was planning to do was stream to facebook from eCamm, connect the eCamm WebCam in OBS, and stream to you tube via OBS. So any software that provides a video stream that can do that - go to one internet stream, plus provide a video feed that can be read by OBS would work. I think there are actually more options for this sort of thing on Windows than the Mac. (But haven't used Windows in decades, so it's a guess).

But all this is just to avoid buying a restream.io subscription :-) which will work on any platform.

[phcorrigan]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I imagine there are similar windows options. eCamm only streams to one place. But it does provide a "webcam" output. So all I was planning to do was stream to facebook from eCamm, connect the eCamm WebCam in OBS, and stream to you tube via OBS. So any software that provides a video stream that can do that - go to one internet stream, plus provide a video feed that can be read by OBS would work. I think there are actually more options for this sort of thing on Windows than the Mac. (But haven't used Windows in decades, so it's a guess).

But all this is just to avoid buying a restream.io subscription :-) which will work on any platform.

If I understand, you're using eCamm internally, but streaming out to Zoom, YouTube, etc. Correct?

Thanks.