Midside Effect for live performance

[RedCab]

Hello Guys!

I'm looking for an effect - pedal or processor - in low price range(not studio EQ), which could help to have a mid/side stereo sound on stage.
I know Sunnaudio MS-2, but it would be better to have a product from worldwide distributor, which has a local support/shop/warranty in EU.

Thanks in advance

[PANDAPANDELO]

As far as I know, the MS-2 is the only gear that makes that magic. And it's really incredible!

[Doug Young]

The MS-2 is the only product out there there that does this as an integrated effect. I had them build the original for me as a custom order to simplify the way I've previously done it. It's great that they've now made it into an available production model (which improves on my original requested specs in many ways).

In the past, I used 2 different approaches. The simplest was to use a Sonic Orbit MS-decoder box (passive, basically a transformer). That works great with the right signal chain - my best setup was a Pendulum SPS-1 into the Sonic Orbit box, then into a TC Electronic reverb, all in one small rack. That was a great setup, except for the hassle of having a rack. I also used this arrangement with a Felix, which worked a little less well - Felix -> Sonic Orbit was fine, but I had gain staging issues and other complications trying to include a reverb on a pedal board. Note the cost of this setup: Pendulum ($2500?), Sonic Orbit ($399?), TC 4000 ($1500), or Felix ($1000) + Orbit ($399) + other pedals.

The other approach was to use a computer-based setup. Mac Laptop ($1500?), UAD Apollo interface ($2000?), with a MS-decoder plugin ($200 or so). This also sounded great, but using a laptop on stage was a hassle and error-prone.

The MS-2 reduced all the complexity and at the same time cost a fraction of what it replaced, and if anything, sounds better.

[RedCab]

Thank you for your detailed answer. I found this feature first (not for studio purpose) in your video, and started to think about this solution to integrate into my system, so that's great that you replied

My plan would be to use a K&K Quantum blender with my TC Nova system in FX loop, and put an MS after the K&K.

Do you know an alternative to Sonic Orbit? Because I can not find a compact and relative cheap solution which could be integrated to a pedal board.

Buy an MS-2 only because of MS would be expensive to me and no distributor in EU currently.
Thank you in advance for your answer.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by RedCab

Do you know an alternative to Sonic Orbit? Because I can not find a compact and relative cheap solution which could be integrated to a pedal board.

The only other solution I've found would be a custom circuit. There are a couple of kits, if you want to try to solder one together yourself. Here's one:

https://www.ka-electronics.com/kaele.../MS_Matrix.htm

This ends up being a few hundred $$ and may or may not be right as far as gain staging. Could end being an expensive experiment, unless you're very comfortable building your own electronics.

Radial used to make one, similar to the Sonic Orbit, but it's been discontinued:

https://www.radialeng.com/product/decoder

You might find one used.

I think any solution where you cobble something together, even the Sonic Orbit approach, will be more error prone, with various gain staging challenges. The MS-2 is a deal for what it does. Even as just a 2-channel preamp, ignoring the MS feature, it's competitive with any other 2-channel preamp out there, including those costing more.

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

The only other solution I've found would be a custom circuit. There are a couple of kits, if you want to try to solder one together yourself. Here's one:

https://www.ka-electronics.com/kaele.../MS_Matrix.htm

I am pretty sure you don't need to make such a complex circuit. All you need is one inverter and two summing amplifiers.

[Cuki79]

What is cool with the radial box is the three inputs. you can have MS stereo for the guitar (dual source) and a mono channel for a vocal mic.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

I am pretty sure you don't need to make such a complex circuit. All you need is one inverter and two summing amplifiers.

Yeah, I have no idea what they're doing with that kit. It is encoder+decoder, but still... Here's a simpler circuit:

http://www.uneeda-audio.com/ms/mat02.pdf

The simplest way is a transformer, which is all the Sonic Orbit is - a box with a transformer and input/output jacks. The problem is that the transformer is rather expensive by itself.

Still, I'd just buy a commercial product that's been bullet-proofed, unless you're really into DIY. RedCab is worried about local support/warranty, but I'm not sure I see the need. I don't recall ever taking any guitar preamp in for repairs. They will just work as long as you power them right and don't drive a truck over them.