ToneDexter 2 - initial thoughts and reviews

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

On a side note, I know only some people have it so far, but what's the big change with this new version vs. the old? I know there are new features but are the IR's improved and if so, what was done?

Scott, that's my question too. The new version offers more features that make its usage easier for players but is its IR-generating system and algorithm any better at rendering a tonally satisfying IR than the original ToneDexter? I'm tempted to buy the ToneDexter II but using my original ToneDexter can sound good to me.

[Larrison]

Another quick and dirty comparison with my Hummingbird and K&K Trinity. I'm getting ready to tear down my acoustic board to put the TDII on there so I wanted to capture what I had previously. I've been pretty pleased with this setup other than the fact that neither the K&K blender nor Redeye (mine is older) were set up for wired 9V power and had to be modified a bit to put battery clip adapters into them. Just extra complication and stuff that could fail (but never has).

First take is the K&K blender with no mic, into tuner, reverb (off), then a RedEye with the treble set somewhere below halfway.

Second take is the same as above but with the mic turned up to about 40%ish. There's some fizz in this recording that I have noticed recently when I play this through our church PA. I don't remember it before a few months ago but I'm betting my power adapter(s) situation is the culprit.

Third take is TDII with a bit of internal mic in the blend. There's a LITTLE bit of hollowness that I hear when listening back to back like this, but I think the EQ is pretty close on this.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Scott, that's my question too. The new version offers more features that make its usage easier for players but is its IR-generating system and algorithm any better at rendering a tonally satisfying IR than the original ToneDexter? I'm tempted to buy the ToneDexter II but using my original ToneDexter can sound good to me.

Definitely. It sounds as though the algorithms are the same, which is not a bad thing, I would probably just skip on upgrading as I hardly use the original.

The only thing that might make me upgrade would be an option to eq the IR separately. That's one feature I always wanted with the Aura. I know the original Aura had this feature but then they abandoned it on the Spectrum. You can either eq the blended pickup/wavemap or, eq just the pickup.

[aschroeder]

You guys are really tempting me. I've been using an Optima Air to manage my IRs with good success. But the Tonedexter is much more feature heavy and would simplify my pedalboard.

Does the new TD II allow the upload of 3rd party IRs? The only reason I ask is I use my own recorded IRs for a couple guitars on my Optima Air. But I could never get a good IR for one of my guitars and found a 3rd party IR that sounds great. I know uploading 3rd party IRs wasn't possible on the old Tonedexter unit.

It may be a non issue since I may be able to get great IRs just recording through the Tonedexter.

[gfirob]

I like the idea and the features of Tonedexter II, but I haven't heard a big improvement in the IR's and I am really happy with my Tonedexter I. I look forward to some kind of A and B that really shows the difference.

[shufflebeat]

Originally Posted by gfirob

…I haven't heard a big improvement in the IR's and I am really happy with my Tonedexter I. I look forward to some kind of A and B that really shows the difference.

Should we be expecting a big quality difference in the sound? The IR is so hit/miss already because there are so many variables in the training process, that’s not an internal issue.

I’m not (yet) in the market for a TD2 but the thing that’s likely to persuade me is the versatility regarding multiple instruments, saving EQ and level settings.

Something has been bugging me though. I’ve seen mention of “stereo” operation, yet there’s only one DI output. If I send a Y cable (TRS - TSx2) from the headphone socket to a dual L/R DI will I be able to take advantage of stereo FX in the loop?

[tadol]

Originally Posted by shufflebeat

Should we be expecting a big quality difference in the sound? The IR is so hit/miss already because there are so many variables in the training process, that’s not an internal issue.

I’m not (yet) in the market for a TD2 but the thing that’s likely to persuade me is the versatility regarding multiple instruments, saving EQ and level settings.

Something has been bugging me though. I’ve seen mention of “stereo” operation, yet there’s only one DI output. If I send a Y cable (TRS - TSx2) from the headphone socket to a dual L/R DI will I be able to take advantage of stereo FX in the loop?

I honestly doubt one would hear a difference in the actual wavemaps created on the 1 vs the 2 - If you are happy with the 1, there is no need to get a 2. And I would not say the wavemaps are hit/miss - they're just the same as setting up a mic to record with - you need to try a few different positions, and maybe even a couple different mics, to make sure you get the sound you're wanting. The big difference is that once you get it, you can store it and use over and over, while still making adjustments to it based on the equipment you plug into and the acoustic environment.

What is different with the 2 are many usability and appearance items, and potential for more in the future with some updates. It's whats under the hood (and some on top) of the the TD2 that is the real difference. More options for I/O, EQ, color screen, and a much more powerful processor that makes the training much faster and easier (and you can save eq and other settings with the wave map). You also get the ability to attach to a computer or tablet, and unload, backup, rename, or reload wave maps as desired - so you can save multiple copies of a wave map, and alter the settings for each and save them individually. And currently, unless you can find one used, a TD2 is the only option really currently available -

As far as transferring or loading wave maps - I did talk to James about that when he first mentioned to me that he was setting it up to offload and store wave maps easily. His goal was more for the professional musicians who rely on their TD when performing to be able to replace their unit if anything happened to it on tour, and have all their settings very quickly and easily restorable. He imagined that there would be a strong interest in transferring and loading alternative wavemaps, but the issues of liability and support for that were too major an obstacle to imagine offering, especially at the beginning. But as long as the wavemap is made on a TD2, technically, it could be transferred. BUT - if people try modifying the files, or generating them on alternate equipment, I think there is a potential to create something that could damage the TD or other equipment, so it would not be recommended. In the future there may be a way for a firmware update that could validate an external file, but that hasn't been written or done yet, and with the other ideas that James has for future firmware/functionality updates, I doubt it would happen soon - and with some hints at what he's been thinking about, I'd rather he not work on alternate (non-TD2) wavemaps at all -

I don't know about the stereo effects out - there are a number of options that are selectable with the outputs, but I have not played with any of those at all (yet) - Having too much fun just training and playing and listening with a number of different guitars - Maybe James will see this and weigh in -

[James May]

Hi Folks,
I thought I'd answer a few of the questions so far.

Originally Posted by Uncle Pen

...
On that note, does anyone have insight as to the reason James added phantom powered dual source stereo mic support to the pedal, as it kinda seems redundant? I'm not complaining, just curious. ...

There has been a lot of interest in dual source systems, for good reason. Adding a mic to the mix can make a typical pickup sound a lot better, especially if the mic and pickup are crossed over so that the pickup provides the lows, and the mic provides the highs.

ToneDexter WaveMaps, in my view, eliminate the need for a dual source system. But since ToneDexter II has a 4 channel analog to digital converter inside so that I could provide 4 independent outputs, it would be silly not to use the 4 independent inputs for something useful.

ToneDexter II has a mono instrument input, as well as a mono or stereo aux input. Aux can be used as merely a 2nd mono input to provide automatic source selection between two different instruments when changing WaveMaps. Or, Aux can be used as a stereo input for a dual source pickup. The second source could be a mic or a second pickup. There are separate 4-band EQ channels for each path, and an option to use it in crossover mode with adjustable frequency. In that case there is just one EQ block after the crossover recombines the two signals.

I think it will appeal to some dual source users who just want a very high quality preamp with flexible EQ. And once they try a WaveMap, who knows?

Originally Posted by Petty1818

...
On a side note, I know only some people have it so far, but what's the big change with this new version vs. the old? I know there are new features but are the IR's improved and if so, what was done?

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Scott, that's my question too. The new version offers more features that make its usage easier for players but is its IR-generating system and algorithm any better at rendering a tonally satisfying IR than the original ToneDexter? I'm tempted to buy the ToneDexter II but using my original ToneDexter can sound good to me.

Originally Posted by shufflebeat

Should we be expecting a big quality difference in the sound?

You folks should know by now that I tell it like it is, without marketing hype. The algorithm has changed significantly, for the better in several ways. Yes, the WaveMaps do sound somewhat better on careful listen. but the improvement is not drastic.

However, the ease of creating them has significantly improved. It used to be difficult with some instrument/pickup combinations to set levels and get acceptable WaveMaps. I'm thinking upright bass in particular. This is no longer the case. The algorithm is much less finicky, but yet still gives excellent results in all cases.

The new method also allows greatly expanded tone shaping in the form of anti-feedback and spaciousness adjustments. There much more to say about this, stay tuned to the website as we add much more detail about these features.

Originally Posted by aschroeder

You guys are really tempting me. ...
Does the new TD II allow the upload of 3rd party IRs? ...
It may be a non issue since I may be able to get great IRs just recording through the Tonedexter.

Importing 3rd party IRs is currently not supported, but I expect I will add this feature in a future SW release. The motivation is mainly to allow importing speaker cabinet IRs for users who want to use this as an electric guitar preamp. And yes, one would be able to import 3rd party acoustic guitar IRs if they want to be disappointed.

Originally Posted by shufflebeat

S...
Something has been bugging me though. I’ve seen mention of “stereo” operation, yet there’s only one DI output. If I send a Y cable (TRS - TSx2) from the headphone socket to a dual L/R DI will I be able to take advantage of stereo FX in the loop?

Yes, the effects loop can be used as typical mono, but also as mono send stereo return which appear in stereo at the aux/headphone output. It can also be used as two independent mono effects loops for dual source systems.

I will try to answer other questions here as they come up.

[Larrison]

Originally Posted by James May

Hi Folks,

I thought I'd answer a few of the questions so far.







There has been a lot of interest in dual source systems, for good reason. Adding a mic to the mix can make a typical pickup sound a lot better, especially if the mic and pickup are crossed over so that the pickup provides the lows, and the mic provides the highs.



ToneDexter WaveMaps, in my view, eliminate the need for a dual source system. But since ToneDexter II has a 4 channel analog to digital converter inside so that I could provide 4 independent outputs, it would be silly not to use the 4 independent inputs for something useful.



ToneDexter II has a mono instrument input, as well as a mono or stereo aux input. Aux can be used as merely a 2nd mono input to provide automatic source selection between two different instruments when changing WaveMaps. Or, Aux can be used as a stereo input for a dual source pickup. The second source could be a mic or a second pickup. There are separate 4-band EQ channels for each path, and an option to use it in crossover mode with adjustable frequency. In that case there is just one EQ block after the crossover recombines the two signals.



I think it will appeal to some dual source users who just want a very high quality preamp with flexible EQ. And once they try a WaveMap, who knows?

















You folks should know by now that I tell it like it is, without marketing hype. The algorithm has changed significantly, for the better in several ways. Yes, the WaveMaps do sound somewhat better on careful listen. but the improvement is not drastic.



However, the ease of creating them has significantly improved. It used to be difficult with some instrument/pickup combinations to set levels and get acceptable WaveMaps. I'm thinking upright bass in particular. This is no longer the case. The algorithm is much less finicky, but yet still gives excellent results in all cases.



The new method also allows greatly expanded tone shaping in the form of anti-feedback and spaciousness adjustments. There much more to say about this, stay tuned to the website as we add much more detail about these features.







Importing 3rd party IRs is currently not supported, but I expect I will add this feature in a future SW release. The motivation is mainly to allow importing speaker cabinet IRs for users who want to use this as an electric guitar preamp. And yes, one would be able to import 3rd party acoustic guitar IRs if they want to be disappointed.









Yes, the effects loop can be used as typical mono, but also as mono send stereo return which appear in stereo at the aux/headphone output. It can also be used as two independent mono effects loops for dual source systems.



I will try to answer other questions here as they come up.

I can’t comment on anything about the TD1, other than hearing it in YouTube videos. But I did want to applaud James for how easy it is to train TD2. It is really really nice to be able to hit a foot switch while training to head the raw mic input and ensure it is hearing what you want it to hear. I haven’t timed the training or anything but the three I’ve done, I didn’t pay particular attention to what I was playing just made sure I was playing all the strings.

For James or any other TD2 users- is there any way to extend the time it takes for a menu to time out and go back to the prior menu without user input? Or even disable that function? Sometimes I’m having to race the clock or keep a knob moving while thinking/playing/listening.

[James May]

Originally Posted by Larrison

...
For James or any other TD2 users- is there any way to extend the time it takes for a menu to time out and go back to the prior menu without user input? Or even disable that function? Sometimes I’m having to race the clock or keep a knob moving while thinking/playing/listening.

We have added a global setting to adjust the page timeout including off. It will be in V1.1 which is well under way. I won't yet say what all V1.1 will include, but graphic display of the EQ curves as you're adjusting them is one new feature that you'll soon see.

BTW, training time including level set is less than 1 minute if you play continuously.

[Larrison]

Originally Posted by James May

We have added a global setting to adjust the page timeout including off. It will be in V1.1 which is well under way. I won't yet say what all V1.1 will include, but graphic display of the EQ curves as you're adjusting them is one new feature that you'll soon see.



BTW, training time including level set is less than 1 minute if you play continuously.

Both of those additions will be quite welcome!

Thank you for the quick response.

[ceciltguitar]

Hi James, I still love the TD1 and hope to get the TD2 next year.

I seem to vaguely recall that when training a guitar with a Barbera Soloist pickup with the TD1 that one could only play either strings 1, 3 and 5, or 2, 4, and 6? Due to phase difference? Am I remembering that correctly?

I have 2 guitars with Barbera Soloist pickups now. Does the TD2 work okay with Barbera Soloist pickups? And if so, are there any specific special guidelines, such as what I mentioned above?

Thank you!

[shufflebeat]

Thanks for the input, James, and congratulations on the entire project. I’ll be keeping a close eye on developments as I chug along with ye olde TD1 for a while yet.

All the best.

[jplee3]

Originally Posted by James May

Hi Folks,
I thought I'd answer a few of the questions so far.



There has been a lot of interest in dual source systems, for good reason. Adding a mic to the mix can make a typical pickup sound a lot better, especially if the mic and pickup are crossed over so that the pickup provides the lows, and the mic provides the highs.

ToneDexter WaveMaps, in my view, eliminate the need for a dual source system. But since ToneDexter II has a 4 channel analog to digital converter inside so that I could provide 4 independent outputs, it would be silly not to use the 4 independent inputs for something useful.

ToneDexter II has a mono instrument input, as well as a mono or stereo aux input. Aux can be used as merely a 2nd mono input to provide automatic source selection between two different instruments when changing WaveMaps. Or, Aux can be used as a stereo input for a dual source pickup. The second source could be a mic or a second pickup. There are separate 4-band EQ channels for each path, and an option to use it in crossover mode with adjustable frequency. In that case there is just one EQ block after the crossover recombines the two signals.

I think it will appeal to some dual source users who just want a very high quality preamp with flexible EQ. And once they try a WaveMap, who knows?








You folks should know by now that I tell it like it is, without marketing hype. The algorithm has changed significantly, for the better in several ways. Yes, the WaveMaps do sound somewhat better on careful listen. but the improvement is not drastic.

However, the ease of creating them has significantly improved. It used to be difficult with some instrument/pickup combinations to set levels and get acceptable WaveMaps. I'm thinking upright bass in particular. This is no longer the case. The algorithm is much less finicky, but yet still gives excellent results in all cases.

The new method also allows greatly expanded tone shaping in the form of anti-feedback and spaciousness adjustments. There much more to say about this, stay tuned to the website as we add much more detail about these features.



Importing 3rd party IRs is currently not supported, but I expect I will add this feature in a future SW release. The motivation is mainly to allow importing speaker cabinet IRs for users who want to use this as an electric guitar preamp. And yes, one would be able to import 3rd party acoustic guitar IRs if they want to be disappointed.




Yes, the effects loop can be used as typical mono, but also as mono send stereo return which appear in stereo at the aux/headphone output. It can also be used as two independent mono effects loops for dual source systems.

I will try to answer other questions here as they come up.

Hi James, are you considering provisioning for wavemaps to be exported so that they can be used on other modelers as well?

[James May]

Originally Posted by ceciltguitar

Hi James, I still love the TD1 and hope to get the TD2 next year.

I seem to vaguely recall that when training a guitar with a Barbera Soloist pickup with the TD1 that one could only play either strings 1, 3 and 5, or 2, 4, and 6? Due to phase difference? Am I remembering that correctly?

I have 2 guitars with Barbera Soloist pickups now. Does the TD2 work okay with Barbera Soloist pickups? And if so, are there any specific special guidelines, such as what I mentioned above?

Thank you!

The above requirements for having to train only on strings that have the same phase pickup sensor hasn't changed, due to the laws of physics being rather stubborn.