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  #31  
Old 02-16-2021, 06:57 PM
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Methos1979 Methos1979 is offline
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Sometimes maybe, but as a general principle that's just silly. If the octave below is your natural range, then it just sounds like an interesting new take on it. It's you making the song your own.
If it sounds "wrong", that's down to something else: probably your over-attachment to the original.

How about when a man sings a song that was originally sung by a woman? That might well have to be an octave down. Is that "wrong"? Should a man never sing a woman's song?

Or would you say an octave higher is OK? Or should women never sing men's songs either? Should Jeff Buckley never have sung Hallelujah?

There is no "supposed to be" about the register of any song. Except (arguably) those classical pieces written for specific ranges: bass, soprano and so on. In operas, those things have relevance to character and narrative (so I understand - I hate opera!). But in popular music, nope. Naturally we get used to recordings which are commercially successful and become classics. That ought to be a challenge to anyone to sing them in completely different registers. Stir it up!
This has not been our experience from gigging the last several years. On occasion we can make it work but if a specific part is supposed to go high (usually a chorus, like the previously mentioned Heart song 'Alone') and you instead drop it a whole octave it just doesn't sound right. Audience reaction is very noticeable if they're expecting a 'wow' moment and don't get it.

From your numerous detailed replies above it sounds like you're a singer with personal experience with this. I'd love to hear some examples where you've made a song your own by significantly changing the key to a much lower (or higher) example if you've got some to share.
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  #32  
Old 02-17-2021, 05:49 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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This has not been our experience from gigging the last several years. On occasion we can make it work but if a specific part is supposed to go high (usually a chorus, like the previously mentioned Heart song 'Alone') and you instead drop it a whole octave it just doesn't sound right. Audience reaction is very noticeable if they're expecting a 'wow' moment and don't get it.
Sure, there would definitely be occasions where such a change wouldn't work.

I was referring to lowering the octave for the whole song, not just part of it. If the whole song is lowered, then you still have the proper relative pitch relationship between each part. The song should still work, because the higher parts will still be towards the top of the singer's range, giving it a similar wow factor.
Of course, if lowering the whole thing puts it out of your range the other way (can't reach the low notes in the other section), then transposition is required anyway.

The Jeff Buckley example is admittedly unusual. He lowered the chorus octave relative to the verse. I.e., his verse was an octave higher than Cohen's, while his chorus was the same as Cohen's. Naturally that totally changed the impact of the song - but he "got away with it" because he was such a great singer, and played a very sensitive arrangement.
It proves such things can work, provided you understand - and exploit - the difference it makes. He may also have had the advantage that his fans and listeners were not familiar with the original, so accepted his take as definitive. A perfect example of "making the song his own".
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Originally Posted by Methos1979 View Post
From your numerous detailed replies above it sounds like you're a singer with personal experience with this.
Ha! Not at all! I'm most certainly not a singer myself. I have sung on occasion in public, but it's not something I'm confident with, and I'm entirely untrained. You really don't want to hear my efforts...
However, I do have over 50 years experience working in bands with different singers, in different styles of music, and I've often been the one to arrange the songs, transposing up or down as necessary. A lot of those songs would be well-known to audiences in one original version. I've never known an occasion where a transposition spoiled a song.

Once or twice I've encountered the weird phenomenon of pitch memory - where I've known a song so well myself in the original key for years, that it felt wrong when transposed for the singer in this particular band (wrong to me that is, not to the singer or anyone else AFAIK). It surprised me when it happened, but I found that the more I got used to the new key, the more comfortable I got with it; eventually it sounded just as "right" as the old key had.
IOW, I'm well aware that original keys can kind of wear a rut in your brain - at least as a musician, and probably as a singer too. But it's good to get out of that rut - because sometimes (for a singer's benefit) you just have to.
I don't know how many of the audience might have suffered pitch memory with that song (or others whose key we had to change), but we had no complaints - I would have been surprised (and intrigued) if we had.

I should say I don't recall any occasion where the vocal needed to be lowered (or raised) a full octave, and certainly not one where we'd have only lowered one part of a song by an octave. I suspect if such an occasion arose, we'd have looked for another key where the proper octave relationships could be maintained - or just not done the song at all.
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  #33  
Old 02-17-2021, 06:46 AM
merlin666 merlin666 is offline
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I think that high voices for solo are preferred because they can be heard better "above" the other music, similar to violins or mandolins. And yeah high paid Rock or Pop singers hopefully have earned their status by singing in a way that the majority of normal mortals can't. With some practice most people can considerably expand their range though. I joined a choir and was assigned tenor parts so I just had to push it up. Still I change keys of many songs from C to more comfortable G or F.
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  #34  
Old 02-23-2021, 11:24 PM
OKCtodd71 OKCtodd71 is offline
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They aren't always singing in a higher key. Sometimes their voices are recorded then "tuned/turned up" to a higher pitch. I think it's pretty common in rock (when there was R&R) and pop.
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  #35  
Old 02-26-2021, 12:30 AM
Laughingboy68 Laughingboy68 is offline
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Robert Plant comes to mind as does Bruce Dickinson. Both are fantastic in their genres and I can't sing their songs.
Hardly anyone can. RP can't hit those notes anymore. BD changes his delivery live as those Iron Maiden songs are very difficult to sing.
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  #36  
Old 02-26-2021, 12:37 AM
Laughingboy68 Laughingboy68 is offline
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Of course but doesn't sound the same. I want to sound like the artist if I do a song. Insecurity I guess.
I find the song often sounds best if I sing it in a register that requires me to reach a similar point of effort in my range. Some songs are quite a bit lower, but still sound familiar as the amount of effort and emotion in my voice is similar. It certainly sounds better than if I'm struggling/straining to hit the notes. It makes an audience uncomfortable when the singer can't quite pull it off. It is amazing to hear singers reach a point that you weren't sure they could manage, but it isn't very satisfying when they struggle and sing flat.

Some iconic songs, like More Than a Feeling, are rarely covered as they are notoriously difficult to sing in the original key and yet the guitar parts are strongly identifiable in the original key and don't transpose well.
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  #37  
Old 02-26-2021, 12:51 AM
Laughingboy68 Laughingboy68 is offline
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I just worked up an arrangement of Elton John's, Madman Across the Water. I play it in Drop D tuning and lower the key a perfect fourth from Am to Em. It sounds very convincing in this key for my voice. I think the high note in the chorus is a C5 (I think EJ hits in a pure head voice, but it may be a falsetto). If I attempt it in that key, it sounds ridiculous, even with falsetto slips, I'm just straining too much all the way through. In Em it still sounds intense, but I can comfortably hit all the notes with emotion, technique and confidence. If I'm feeling cocky, I'll capo up a fret or two.

I once worked up an arrangement of NY's, Don't Let It Bring You Down in D standard tuning (I think it was actually Drop C). The original key was so difficult that I rarely played the song (plus tuning down was a pain as well). I changed the key and now play it in standard tuning capo'd up three frets.

I don't generally like hearing songs sung an octave lower, unless it's a male voice singing a song usually done by a woman. I just find that it usually takes all of the emotion out of the song.
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  #38  
Old 02-26-2021, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Laughingboy68 View Post
It makes an audience uncomfortable when the singer can't quite pull it off. It is amazing to hear singers reach a point that you weren't sure they could manage, but it isn't very satisfying when they struggle and sing flat.
For our anniversary several years back I surprised my wife with some backstage passes and quite excellent seats for an Aerosmith concert (a favorite group of ours) and the finale of the show was Dream On and I was wondering if Mr. Tyler would be able to hit 'the note' at the end. At his age it would have been quite the feat so I was delighted when he nailed it, seemingly with ease.

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I don't generally like hearing songs sung an octave lower, unless it's a male voice singing a song usually done by a woman. I just find that it usually takes all of the emotion out of the song.
I agree. Hearing the pro's hit those notes that even for them you can tell is right on the very edge of their range is just exhilarating. It's what separates them from us and why they get the big bucks.
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  #39  
Old 02-26-2021, 10:16 AM
KarenB KarenB is offline
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Dropping down an octave to sing a note sometimes work. Check out this Mumford and Sons cover of Bruce Springsteens' "I'm on Fire" and listen to him when he drops down on the word "fire." Haven't heard the original in awhile, so I'm not sure if it's an octave.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ri23fCeRE8
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Old 02-27-2021, 10:36 AM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
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I scanned the thread and no one has mentioned this. Most of these lead vocals were done very high in the artist's vocal range to stay on top of the mix. Higher pitches are easier to hear and distinguish over the "wall of sound" in a dense recording. High tenor cuts through and baritone voices get lost. My vocal range is bari-tenor - I can sing the two octaves from the bass E string to the treble e string and a couple of notes past that.

Over the past year without regular acoustic jams and singing out loud twice weekly in jam groups, it has become obvious that my voice instrument is getting out of shape. I've essentially lost the top two notes and my whole range is noticeably comfier down at least a step or two down from where I always have done them. I am getting quite good at transposing on the fly, and keep at least one guitar tuned down to D-d for vocal comfort. My latest major personal songbook update now includes two versions of many familiar songs - original key and preferred key. While I mostly play without the book, it is handy to have it for other trying to play with me in unfamiliar keys. This morning I sat down at the computer to transpose Bob Seger's "Against the Wind" from the original G down to a more comfortable C.
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  #41  
Old 02-27-2021, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Cecil6243 View Post
sing in a higher register? Sometimes it's frustrating when you want to do a song and can't reach those notes. Boston comes to mind and many others. I love the guitar with their songs but the vocals -- nope.

Is it just something someone started and and others followed or is a higher voice more interesting or something?
Showing your age? LOL. 57 here, and I was a huge fan of Boston. 70's and 80's Rock was full of high pitches screamers. Steve Perry, Geddy Lee, Prince, Marvin Gaye and on and on. Before that, Stax, Sun & and especially Motown had a ton of high pitched Man - bands with 4-5 front vocals. Invariably, the high falsetto leads were the pinnacle of the songs.

There have always been great singers with rough, deep voices too. AC/DC's Brian Johnson for example.

I think the most underrated vocalist of this era was Bob Seger - he could and did do it all.
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  #42  
Old 02-27-2021, 01:17 PM
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Frankie Valli, anyone? I never did understand why people liked that sound, unless its because it makes them sound like young boys.

My real beef is with female singers who all want to howl (like Christina Aguilera) and belt out songs like Aretha, when they probably have pretty voices.
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Old 02-27-2021, 01:31 PM
difalkner difalkner is offline
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I remember the second John Denver concert I went to when he encouraged everyone to sing along with the chorus of each song. After he sang The Eagle and the Hawk he laughed and said, "I didn't hear anyone singing along on that one!" Very few could because it's so high, was probably at the upper end of his register, as well.

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  #44  
Old 02-28-2021, 10:00 AM
Laughingboy68 Laughingboy68 is offline
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Originally Posted by roylor4 View Post
Showing your age? LOL. 57 here, and I was a huge fan of Boston. 70's and 80's Rock was full of high pitches screamers. Steve Perry, Geddy Lee, Prince, Marvin Gaye and on and on. Before that, Stax, Sun & and especially Motown had a ton of high pitched Man - bands with 4-5 front vocals. Invariably, the high falsetto leads were the pinnacle of the songs.

There have always been great singers with rough, deep voices too. AC/DC's Brian Johnson for example.

I think the most underrated vocalist of this era was Bob Seger - he could and did do it all.
Brian Johnson is certainly rough, but his voice is anything but deep. Most of his vocals are firmly in the high tenor range.

I do love me some Bob Seger, but I must say I like most of the singers listed including Mr. Johnson.
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Old 02-28-2021, 10:02 AM
Laughingboy68 Laughingboy68 is offline
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Originally Posted by The Watchman View Post
Frankie Valli, anyone? I never did understand why people liked that sound, unless its because it makes them sound like young boys.

My real beef is with female singers who all want to howl (like Christina Aguilera) and belt out songs like Aretha, when they probably have pretty voices.
To each his own. CA and AF are both pretty amazing singers in my opinion. The Four Seasons were pretty amazing as far as I'm concerned.
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