Volume: Heavy vs light guitars

[Elisdad]

I have a Collings D2h and a Huss and Dalton TDM custom. The Collings is sitka top, adi braces and no tongue brace, and a rosewood back. The TDM is baked adi top with mahogany back and sides.

The TDM is lightweight and very resonate. You can feel everything and is a real joy to play. It seems more lightly built than the Collings just tapping on the top and back. The Collings is significantly heavier (rosewood vs mahogany) and you don't feel things as much through the back of the guitar.

It is a bit surprising to me that the heavier less resonate guitar is the louder one. It isn't a huge difference but the Collings is louder, at least based on my perception from both playing and listening positions while my son played. I also tried a few decibel reading apps on my phone. I do realize that isn't very scientific. Is this just physics at work? Is it sorcery?

[Tannin]

Volume has more to do with the weight and stiffness of the top, not so much to do with the body. (And a zillion other factors too, of course.) Think of a speaker system: the volume it produces mostly has to do with the efficiency of the speaker and the shape of the enclosure, not very much to do with the overall weight.

[Bax Burgess]

A comparison I haven't heard, two versions of a builder's guitar, using the same top, but one with very heavy (not just a little bit) back and sides. What would happen, more 'growl', from-the-gut firmness of sound?

[Mandobart]

I doubt any strong correlation between physical weight and volume for guitars. There are so many other factors that go into volume - stiffness, body size, bridge type and placement, string gage, etc.

My loudest guitar (by far) is my Altamira Sel-Mac copy gypsy jazz guitar. It also is my lightest weight guitar and uses the lightest strings (11's).

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Elisdad

…I do realize that isn't very scientific. Is this just physics at work? Is it sorcery?

Hey Elisdad
It’s not how much guitars weigh but how they are built that count.

One of the best projecting guitars I ever played (a Bashkin OM) had an Ebony back/sides. Yet it projected amazingly, and had great tone.

Many inexpensive lightweight guitars (built from plywood), I’ve played are dull, listless, and pretty quiet.

I don’t see a correlation twixt weight and performance.

[Alan Carruth]

Define 'loudness'.

There are several ways you can talk about the output of a guitar. Most of them involve some sort of subjective judgement, and given the way ears and brains work that can produce some odd results. A lot can depend on who's making the call. The player can get much different impression than somebody in the audience.

"It is a bit surprising to me that the heavier less resonate guitar is the louder one."

I'm not familiar with those model designations, but I assume the Collings is a Dread clone. Dreads are designed to have a lot of 'punch' in the bass. Any guitar is actually a pretty small 'speaker' compared with the wave lengths of the lowest notes, and they go out more less equally in all directions. The player hears the low end as well as anybody in the room. The higher notes become more 'directional' actually starting as low as the open G string pitch, and by the time you reach the frequencies where hearing tends to be most acute the sound is going off the top and out of the hole toward the audience. I have seen guitars that were considered 'cannons' by folks in the back of the room, but were significantly less impressive off to the side, and just barely audible to the player. We may be talking about something similar here.

[RoyBoy]

Definitely physics at work. Granted, Collings uses the finest woods and is meticulous about everything they do, but they are also engineered to cut through the mix, which is why you'll see them on stages where working musicians depend on them day in and day out. They're also built to last, which is where some of that weight comes from (and another reason why touring musicians depend on them). Bill worked on a lot of great working musician's instruments for a long time before he started his own line. When he did, he built to overcome the weaknesses he'd found in traditional designs.

[brencat]

I too notice very little correlation between loudness/projection and overall weight of a guitar, but I will say I INTENSELY dislike any acoustic that weighs much more than 4 lbs 8 oz. Heavy guitars really annoy me and none have ever stayed in my collection long term. Yeah I’m picky, and I’ve earned the right to be...

[bufflehead]

Originally Posted by Elisdad

Is it sorcery?

Yes, there is a good deal of sorcery involved. However, I think the differences you're hearing have more to do with the properties of rosewood vs mahogany.

You note that with the mahogany guitar "you can feel everything" and that it's a joy to play. This has been my experience as well with lightly constructed mahogany guitars. The music in transmitted viscerally through the guitarist's body. When we call mahogany "warm," we're not just describing the tone.

As a singer who wants the guitar to provide accompaniment without competing with my voice, mahogany is a clear choice. If I were playing instrumental pieces I would probably gravitate to rosewood guitars because the "volume" you describe works well there, as do the overtones.

To each his own. Anyway, I wouldn't ascribe too much of the sorcery to the build weight.

[DCCougar]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

I don’t see a correlation twixt weight and performance.

This is well demonstrated by early Guild jumbo 12-strings. With two truss rods, they are really heavy -- often referred to as "tanks." Their sound output is also like a tank firing off a shot -- very loud!

[Elisdad]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

I'm not familiar with those model designations, but I assume the Collings is a Dread clone. Dreads are designed to have a lot of 'punch' in the bass.

Both dreads using the same strings.

[tadol]

Many variables involved here - there is a philosophy about how the guitar works, which parts resonate, which parts reflect, which parts carry energy and transfer it, and which parts break the transfer of energy or send it back - weight quickly comes into play in these design choices. Materials also play a part - the weight of the material used in the neck, for instance, or the huge difference between some rosewoods and some mahoganies -

Also, it isn’t hard to get volume, but volume isn’t tone. I’ve played a number of guitars that had incredible volume, but lacked much depth or quality of tone - those don’t really interest me. And I have a couple of guitars that have absulutely beautiful, balanced tone, but would never be used by a bluegrasser. Getting the 2 together, thats one of the challenges of building a truly great instrument -

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by DCCougar

This is well demonstrated by early Guild jumbo 12-strings. With two truss rods, they are really heavy -- often referred to as "tanks." Their sound output is also like a tank firing off a shot -- very loud!

Hi DCC…
My point is weight (or lack of it) is not what determines whether guitars are loud (or soft). The design of the instrument which involves bracing, density of the wood, and the architecture of the instrument determine those things.

Guitars like the Guild Jumbos are also referred to as ‘cannons’. Kind of depends on where in the country you are and the ‘language’ of the playing community.

And over the years I’ve played a couple of blonde Guild Jumbo 12s that were wimpy sounding.

[Elisdad]

Originally Posted by tadol

Also, it isn’t hard to get volume, but volume isn’t tone. I’ve played a number of guitars that had incredible volume, but lacked much depth or quality of tone - those don’t really interest me. And I have a couple of guitars that have absulutely beautiful, balanced tone, but would never be used by a bluegrasser. Getting the 2 together, thats one of the challenges of building a truly great instrument -

I agree with this. Finding the combination is special. I think I am pretty lucky with both the Collings and H&D being great guitars for bluegrass. They both seem to have excellent volume and tone.

[bunnyman]

The stiffer the back, the more the guitar projects sound. Stiffness is a combo of wood weight, wood type and bracing. Hard to know which is the key other to note that one back is stiffer than another.