Electric Cars

[The Watchman]

I am expecting to get one in the future. Most of my travel is around town. For longer trips, I'll rent a gas vehicle.

[KevWind]

Don't own one myself personally, but our son in law's has the Nissan LEAF (he commutes just shy of 100 miles round trip each day, loves it0 . I have driven it (once) and it was pretty nice , fast and quiet

[SprintBob]

Anyone interested in EV should research the following:

1. Estimated range versus reality - A recent Wall Street Journal article chronicled the experiences of several editors who lived with EV’s for several weeks. Those who took any trip over 200 miles found it took nearly twice as long and they were shutting off systems in the car (entertainment, climate control) to extend the range. The vehicle range in cold weather versus warm weather was significantly less. Those with the best (and most practical) experience only used the EV’s in town for short trips.

2. Where does the material for the batteries (lithium) come from? - Currently mostly from China and the open pit mining to get it is not pretty. There are lithium reserves in the the US but environmental organizations will be fighting the permits to limit or stop development.

3. Is the source of power to charge the EV carbon friendly?

Based on just the three points above, I think the internal combustion engine is going to be with our society for at least 50-75 years more. There really are no practical EV replacements in the near future for commercial trucking, rail, marine, and aviation requirements.

I think it is wise that we still to continue to evolve the internal combustion engine to make it as efficient and environmentally friendly as possible until EV or perhaps fuel cell technology evolves further.

[Gitfiddlemann]

Originally Posted by AX17609

The range issue is being tackled by a network of high-power charging stations. Apparently, my town has several that I've never even noticed.

So, I'm dying to try a Telsa.

Just the other day I saw a couple of charging stations just outside the local Wegmans. I had never seen them before.
Yes, the concern issues are certainly not software and performance related.
If they could only solve, or greatly reduce, the battery constraints....i.e. their size, how long they take to charge, where the charging locations are located, and the effect of temperature on the vehicle's range.
The range drops a lot (from the temperature sweet spot where maximum ranges are usually given) at lower and higher temperatures because the battery also supplies energy to more tasks (like heat and A/C) than just just the engine power. So, that's something to also take into consideration.
My take:
You need to consider where you live, how much you drive, and the types of drives (i.e. very long trips) you might need or want to undertake, if the only vehicle in your household is to be an all electric one.
If you can satisfactorily check all the boxes, then electric is a great option.
It's always pleasant to be driving behind a Tesla!

[6L6]

My son in law has owned a Tesla Model S for around 5 years now. He's had zero problems with it and is a totally satisfied customer. However...

His kids won't ride in it and my daughter won't either. The reason... car sickness due to the regenerative braking.

The problem is bad enough that Tesla offers a software update to decrease the regenerative braking, but that also means you get less range. A lot has been written about this problem. Google is your friend.

[AX17609]

Originally Posted by 6L6

My son in law has owned a Tesla Model S for around 5 years now. He's had zero problems with it and is a totally satisfied customer. However...

His kids won't ride in it and my daughter won't either. The reason... car sickness due to the regenerative braking.

The problem is bad enough that Tesla offers a software update to decrease the regenerative braking, but that also means you get less range. A lot has been written about this problem. Google is your friend.

That’s a good example of the unknown issues that get raised with this technology. I never ever heard of regenerative braking until yesterday. I don’t know what to make of it without actually driving the car.

[Photojeep]

When I was in graduate school, we had a discussion about internal combustion engine powered cars vs. electric cars. There were many valid points made on both sides but one thing really stood out above the rest: The current infrastructure for automobiles is predominantly combustion engine-centric for the vast majority of the US.

This is not to say charging stations don't exist, but for those who do not live in an area with enough charging facilities, it becomes a problematic situation.

And of course, there's the issue of how to economically produce clean electricity to power one's EV. And let's not forget the environmental impact of the manufacturing of the EV itself.

I'm sure it will eventually happen but IMHO not for a very long time (75+ years) and no amount of laws will make it happen any faster.

Best,
PJ

[Acousticado]

The difficult times we’re living in combined with the timely advancements in work technologies have forced the adoption of work from home on a very large scale to the extent that government and business are recognizing that the future of work will make financial sense for work from home to continue and even expand. This will result in repurposing of a large amount of office space to residential and allow people to redefine their housing and location needs to have better balance in their lives. It’s already happening. People are on the move.

This will also impact the auto industry. Work from home will allow families to function with one car should they so choose and won’t have to travel as far, but when they do, they can rent a gas vehicle until the electric car range and recharge time catches up. As a result, they will be able to afford one higher priced electric vehicle over two gas cars with all the resulting reduced operating costs. I think this will result in a boom for electric car development, manufacturing and acceptance sooner rather than later. Bikes and eBikes will also see significant growth resulting in cities developing/expanding networks of safe riding trails.

We just have to hope that the supply chain associated with the manufacturing and supporting infrastructure of electric vehicles will result in greater efficiencies and be kinder to the air that we breathe.

This is the way I see the silver lining of the not-too-distant future driven by an unprecedented need for dramatic change to societies around the world with significant new business and employment opportunities. There’s no going back and for the most part, it’s a good thing. The times they are a changing...BIG time. I think it’ll be exciting.

[imwjl]

Originally Posted by SprintBob

Anyone interested in EV should research the following:

1. Estimated range versus reality - A recent Wall Street Journal article chronicled the experiences of several editors who lived with EV’s for several weeks. Those who took any trip over 200 miles found it took nearly twice as long and they were shutting off systems in the car (entertainment, climate control) to extend the range. The vehicle range in cold weather versus warm weather was significantly less. Those with the best (and most practical) experience only used the EV’s in town for short trips.

2. Where does the material for the batteries (lithium) come from? - Currently mostly from China and the open pit mining to get it is not pretty. There are lithium reserves in the the US but environmental organizations will be fighting the permits to limit or stop development.

3. Is the source of power to charge the EV carbon friendly?

Based on just the three points above, I think the internal combustion engine is going to be with our society for at least 50-75 years more. There really are no practical EV replacements in the near future for commercial trucking, rail, marine, and aviation requirements.

I think it is wise that we still to continue to evolve the internal combustion engine to make it as efficient and environmentally friendly as possible until EV or perhaps fuel cell technology evolves further.

That's poor information. You are not naming the the vehicles or information needed to make a good decisions.

For example, my friends with older Nissan Leaf have limited range, but their Toyota Sienna's do not. At same time, associates with different Tesla models make 200+ to 300+ mile trips they consider more convenient.

I was the appointed skeptic/business/not liberal member on my city council's committee that studied this stuff and changed a lot of infrastructure in the city. I'll call your battery story credible when you point out the externalities for other energy sources. You might also not be up on the plans and designs for battery recycling.

My apologies to members who are in in some geographical areas, but we don't have oil or gas here. We have hydro, wind and solar where that keeps getting cheaper and more plentiful. Factor that in with battery issues that exist and it can still make a lot of sense.

A BEV might not make sense to you but if you go to the park on a hill near my house you can see the wind farm, solar on the roofs of all new developments and city buildings plus the new solar farm at the airport. You can see the valley where the hydro dam is. Thus, several cars coming at lower costs make sense.

I was in the recycling business before my current job and still follow it. Reality is we have a lot of costs in old and new ways.

I also ask how Tesla has become a top selling car and how some other countries are as ahead of us if it didn't work.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by SprintBob

Anyone interested in EV should research the following:

1. Estimated range versus reality - A recent Wall Street Journal article chronicled the experiences of several editors who lived with EV’s for several weeks. Those who took any trip over 200 miles found it took nearly twice as long and they were shutting off systems in the car (entertainment, climate control) to extend the range. The vehicle range in cold weather versus warm weather was significantly less. Those with the best (and most practical) experience only used the EV’s in town for short trips.

Arguably true except about (lithium),,, but that ignores the primary questions any potential buyer should ask #1 what is the intended primary use ? #2 How often do you take over 200 mile trips ? # 3 Will it be your only vehicle ?
.
Given as far as I know only Teslas current range is over approximately 200 to 250 miles , then any frequent long trips are a definitely a consideration.... BUT I'm guessing most buyers savvy enough to be looking at an EV in the first place, probably understand the range potential and issues, and are really looking for a second , under 200 mile, daily short range commuter vehicle .....

2. Where does the material for the batteries (lithium) come from? - Currently mostly from China and the open pit mining to get it is not pretty. There are lithium reserves in the the US but environmental organizations will be fighting the permits to limit or stop development.

Not actually correct China is 3rd in lithium production @ 7500 metric tons,,, Australia @ 42,000 and Chile @ 18,000,,,,, in 2019

3. Is the source of power to charge the EV carbon friendly?

That is a valid question but ignores the elephant in the room, ALL power production needs be more carbon friendly whether for EV or household .
The environment does not care if the aging coal fired plant, is powering a charging station or your house,,,, just saying ....

Based on just the three points above, I think the internal combustion engine is going to be with our society for at least 50-75 years more. There really are no practical EV replacements in the near future for commercial trucking, rail, marine, and aviation requirements.

I agree the internal combustion is not going away in the near future, But at the current increasing rate of EV development ,,, I think 50 to 75 is way over the top. I would guess closer to 20-30 years .

Unfortunately generalized pronouncements of "no current practical EV replacements " are is vague and again ignores the variable of intended use and range requirements . Long range? arguably still applies (right now) Short range? (except for possibly aviation) not completely true.

In September Amazon placed an order for 100,000 Rivian EV delivery Vans
apparently Jeff Bezos thinks they are currently practical for some types of commercial trucking usage.
And also this
https://www.ttnews.com/articles/dawn-electric-trucks

I think it is wise that we still to continue to evolve the internal combustion engine to make it as efficient and environmentally friendly as possible until EV or perhaps fuel cell technology evolves further.

This we agree on but I would edit it to say 'Wise to continue "demanding" development of more efficient IC engines in the short interim, while continuing to switch to EV et. al. as much as possible and practical., RIGHT NOW

[AmericanEagle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pXCftKF4uI


There was a recent documentary, that has since been blocked, detailing the ineffectiveness of electric cars and other green energy.

[imwjl]

Originally Posted by AmericanEagle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pXCftKF4uI


There was a recent documentary, that has since been blocked, detailing the ineffectiveness of electric cars and other green energy.

It's easy to find a lot of good information that doesn't come from sources known for editorial or being a pundit.

It's also worth looking at trends often associated with the electric and robotic aspects of automobiles such as better urban planning, multi-mode transportation, the part often called micro mobility (it's not just scooters) and transportation as a service vs traditional ownership. Its lots of interesting stuff. Also look at manufacturing. Some of who wins or what's next will be tied to who's best at manufacturing and software.

We're (the masses) are going to benefit regardless.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by AX17609

Does anyone here own an electric car?

Nope - I'm strictly acoustic:

[SprintBob]

Originally Posted by imwjl

That's poor information. You are not naming the the vehicles or information needed to make a good decisions.

For example, my friends with older Nissan Leaf have limited range, but their Toyota Sienna's do not. At same time, associates with different Tesla models make 200+ to 300+ mile trips they consider more convenient.

I was the appointed skeptic/business/not liberal member on my city council's committee that studied this stuff and changed a lot of infrastructure in the city. I'll call your battery story credible when you point out the externalities for other energy sources. You might also not be up on the plans and designs for battery recycling.

My apologies to members who are in in some geographical areas, but we don't have oil or gas here. We have hydro, wind and solar where that keeps getting cheaper and more plentiful. Factor that in with battery issues that exist and it can still make a lot of sense.

A BEV might not make sense to you but if you go to the park on a hill near my house you can see the wind farm, solar on the roofs of all new developments and city buildings plus the new solar farm at the airport. You can see the valley where the hydro dam is. Thus, several cars coming at lower costs make sense.

I was in the recycling business before my current job and still follow it. Reality is we have a lot of costs in old and new ways.

I also ask how Tesla has become a top selling car and how some other countries are as ahead of us if it didn't work.

I’m just repeating what I have read and it seems credible. Show me where I am mis-informed. I have friends with Tesla’s and the performance and quality are impressive. I just don’t believe that EV technology replacing most forms of internal combustion engine technology is in the short term. There are still a lot of challenges.

I put about 40,000 miles a year on my current vehicle. It’s not uncommon for me to drive 300-400 miles one way for a business appointment. I cannot imagine having to plan to stop 1-2 hours for a battery recharge where I did not have to before. In my personal life, I am a sailor that needs to tow boats that range in weight from 500 lbs to 4,000 lbs. I don’t know what the current towing capacity of any of the EV cars is but the EV truck GM just debuted costs over $100K and probably has the same range as the EV cars not towing a trailer. What happens to the range with a trailer in tow? Like I said, EV at this point really only works for those in cities with short commutes.

Another thing worth considering is that in the rush to condemn fossil fuels, many either forget or do not want to acknowledge that oil produces not only fuels but hundreds if not thousands of petrochemical products and derivatives that are absolutely vital to our current standard of living. It’s shortsighted to think of oil as only a fuel source.

I believe the advancement of EV technology is worthwhile but I see it as a supplement to current transportation technology for a long time (probably beyond my remaining lifetime).

[1neeto]

Originally Posted by SprintBob

I’m just repeating what I have read and it seems credible. Show me where I am mis-informed. I have friends with Tesla’s and the performance and quality are impressive. I just don’t believe that EV technology replacing most forms of internal combustion engine technology is in the short term. There are still a lot of challenges.

I put about 40,000 miles a year on my current vehicle. It’s not uncommon for me to drive 300-400 miles one way for a business appointment. I cannot imagine having to plan to stop 1-2 hours for a battery recharge where I did not have to before. In my personal life, I am a sailor that needs to tow boats that range in weight from 500 lbs to 4,000 lbs. I don’t know what the current towing capacity of any of the EV cars is but the EV truck GM just debuted costs over $100K and probably has the same range as the EV cars not towing a trailer. What happens to the range with a trailer in tow? Like I said, EV at this point really only works for those in cities with short commutes.

Another thing worth considering is that in the rush to condemn fossil fuels, many either forget or do not want to acknowledge that oil produces not only fuels but hundreds if not thousands of petrochemical products and derivatives that are absolutely vital to our current standard of living. It’s shortsighted to think of oil as only a fuel source.

I believe the advancement of EV technology is worthwhile but I see it as a supplement to current transportation technology for a long time (probably beyond my remaining lifetime).

And the fact that current EV technology has a finite source. How much lithium can be mined before someone says oh we are killing the environment mining all this lithium?