Zoom R4. Anyone else?

[dnf777]

Originally Posted by ghostnote

A question: how many times can you bounce tracks? Or, rather, how many tracks can you record on the R4 by bouncing?.

All the ads say “unlimited”, but the manual says 99 bounces, and only tracks less than 93 minutes can be bounced. I cant see testing those limits in normal use.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by ghostnote

A question: how many times can you bounce tracks? Or, rather, how many tracks can you record on the R4 by bouncing? For example, with old 4-track cassette recorders, you could bounce tracks until you recorded a maximum of 10 tracks, at which point there was no more room. Is the R4 similar to that?
I should add that I’m quite familiar with basic recording and I do a lot of it on other machines. I already have portable recording options but I’d be interested in one of the R4s if there was a considerable upside - not sure that the 32 bit float is enough reason on its own. The price is certainly right.

Dave provided the essentials for your question, up to 400 tracks can be combined by bouncing repeatedly to the stereo bounced track, but there are some additional points to consider. Every one of your recorded files and ALL of the individual bounces are available to use externally, or they can be imported into a new project within your R4.

Bounces are virtually noiseless, so there's no degradation of signal as you might get with other recorders. Cassette bounces are the worst example, but lower bit rates like 16 bit would introduce noise, even though it's a digital signal.

The considerable "upside" to the R4 is the convenience factor, as Julian Krause refers to. You sit down and hit the red button and don't even look for a level or VU meter... there isn't one.

The vital thing to consider with the R4 is you trade that uber-convenience for limited ability to "mix". The R4 lets you easily EQ each track, set levels, pan left or right, and apply basic reverb or delay. You could get away with doing some rudimentary recording tasks, but the REAL power, and certainly Zoom envisions anyone using it will be taking all the basic recorded tracks (mono or stereo) and transferring them to a computer for final editing in a DAW.

Most users will have sufficient horsepower to do editing, but do consider that files are 33% larger than the same length in a 24 bit file.

Here's a quick photo of the R4 in its "minimalist" environment. Headphones for private listening or overdubbing duties, and a small portable stereo speaker for listening at lower volume levels, although it gets plenty loud. I'm going to do a reference track with count in using only the built-in mic and then do overdubs of all parts, eventually getting rid of the original reference track. This is simply an experiment to become more familiar with the recorder.

As a side note, nothing says you need a stand, but I picked up this "Manfrotto Pixi" mini tripod (less than $20) and it's a very nice accessory for the R4. Solid build, easily adjusts angle, and has wide non-skid feet. Love it!

[ghostnote]

Thanks guys, I think that’s the info I wanted to hear. Seems like a good thing to take a chance on. I could have fun with one of these gizmos. I’m a sucker for tech like this. As for limited mixing ability, I’ve always been a mix-as-I-record kinda guy - I try to balance new tracks with the previous ones as much as possible before things are done. It makes things easier for me in the software later.

[dnf777]

Originally Posted by ghostnote

Thanks guys, I think that’s the info I wanted to hear. Seems like a good thing to take a chance on. I could have fun with one of these gizmos. I’m a sucker for tech like this. As for limited mixing ability, I’ve always been a mix-as-I-record kinda guy - I try to balance new tracks with the previous ones as much as possible before things are done. It makes things easier for me in the software later.

That is a limitation of the R4. Synching tracks is accomplished by starting to play at the proper time! Punching in/out requires two people as far
as I can figure. A footswitch jack will be in a next gen device I suspect. I do think (as Rudy4 mentioned) Zoom engineers designed this not so much as a final production device, but a nice way to record and overdub, then export native tracks to a daw.

Will be interesting to see what direction they go with this. If they want to make a more all-in-one device (daw-less) then a touch screen may be offered, along with a footswitch option, mics and speaker.

[Rudy4]

Here's a quick n' dirty "first recording" done on my Zoom R4 recorder using ONLY the built in microphone and my electric bass plugged in directly. I've used a few different recorders with built-in omni mics and it does seem like the Zoom R4 mic is a cut above what's usually available for these "handheld" recorders.

Since 32 bit float recording is a brand new "technology" for me, I thought it would be fun to record the first song that I wrote when I was 14 years old, circa 1967, since it was never recorded. When I was 14 the only ability to "record" was a record shop in the city that had a disc cutter... WAY beyond my means!

Don't expect too much from a 14 year old... It's titled "Second Chance At Freedom" and was heavily inspired by the favorite of my limited choices in music at the time, Hank Williams Sr.

Recording process:
Scratch track (guitar/vocal) with count in was recorded on track #1. Subsequent overdubs and 2 "bounces" were done for two new guitar tracks, vocal, bass, and mandolin. The initial scratch track was removed when doing the first bounce. These tracks were then selected as a 32 bit float export and moved to my PC, using Reaper to align the audio with the video shot on my Motorola phone. Excess at the start and finish was trimmed and that resulted in the rendered video you see here.

This was a super-fast process, and no real attempt at doing a polished recording, or even balancing of levels. It was really about the process and how easy it was to throw together an idea while only using the recorder's internal microphone.



Pulling down the slider during a "live bounce" to eliminate most of the initial "scratch track", but leaving the vocal count in:



Using Reaper to align audio with video and to remove extra material at the beginning and end:

[dnf777]

Rudy4,
That was really good! I think you missed your true calling!

Curious, once the scratch track was bounced, how exactly do you remove it from the bounce track? I thought you only could “undo” a bounce, and only up until the next bounce.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by dnf777

Rudy4,
That was really good! I think you missed your true calling!

Curious, once the scratch track was bounced, how exactly do you remove it from the bounce track? I thought you only could “undo” a bounce, and only up until the next bounce.

Hi Dave,

The Zoom R4 provides us with a whole bunch of creative options, and it invites us to get inventive with what we do with files during the bounce.

In this case, I simply let the count in be part of the bounce and pulled down the track #1 fader during a real time bounce, as shown in the photo. You could say that track #1 was technically part of the bounce, but the volume was pulled all the way down after the count in, so there was no audio included in the bounce other than the count in.

This would be super-easy to do in the DAW, or even automate "pulling down a fader", but what I really wanted to demonstrate here was doing almost everything on the R4.

If you were simply wanting audio then you could leave the track #1 fader down for the entire time and "EXPORT" to wav or mp3, whichever you have need of.

The other thing to note is that ALL individual tracks are saved as well as ALL bounces. You can do stuff like clear all tracks and re-load one of the early bounces if you want. When you pull an older bounce and try to assign it to a single track it automatically assigns it to a two tracks as a stereo pair. There's a lot to figure out from just trying stuff to see what works.

[Rudy4]

I'm back...

Here's something that might be of interest for folks thinking about creative uses for the Zoom R4. I've got a new song that will be recorded with my playing partner, who will add harmony vocals and his beautiful octave mandolin solos.

I did a quick video of the entire song, leaving the parts where he will add octave mandolin solos so he can work on those parts before we record it.

The description of the process is detailed in the Youtube comments section, but of particular interest is the "acoustic bass" part I added to flesh out this "guide track" a bit. It was done by playing a simple bass part on the nylon strung guitar and routing the mic through the R4's polyphonic pitch shifter effect. The pitch was shifted down a full octave and set to 100% wet to eliminate the actual guitar notes.

I'm a bit shocked with how much like an acoustic upright bass this sounds. Listen to the very last note to hear the actual sound. (i did the first 30 seconds without the "bass" so it's easier to hear without and with bass in the video.)



Here's the "guide track" for "Oh My Diana":

[jukeboxjoe]

Thank you for your clear explanations and video samples. These are great! And yes, the pitch-shifted guitar does make for a usable acoustic bass sound. Very cool!

This device looks easy and fun. Though I have my computer, interface, and DAW, this may inspire me record more quickly (and more often!)

Thanks again for sharing! (I enjoyed the songs too!)

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by jukeboxjoe

Thank you for your clear explanations and video samples. These are great! And yes, the pitch-shifted guitar does make for a usable acoustic bass sound. Very cool!

This device looks easy and fun. Though I have my computer, interface, and DAW, this may inspire me record more quickly (and more often!)

Thanks again for sharing! (I enjoyed the songs too!)

You are entirely welcome.

My R4 has been great fun since Dave alerted us to this in his original first post. I was unaware before his posting that Zoom was bringing this out. It appears that they are releasing all of their new handhelds as 32 bit float recorders.

I'm hoping to play with it a bit today and use another new toy with it. We'll see how that goes...

Possibly the best thing about the R4 is how easy it is to use. It very much reminds me of the old days of sitting down with my old Tascam 4 track cassette multi-tracker. It has all the "quick-n-easy" of that, but with exponentially more features and GREAT sound!

As with all the portable recorder solutions, the very best of both worlds is at our fingertips if we have a DAW setup to use it with. Capture tracks on the portable and slide 'em over to the DAW for editing. That large screen and keyboard/mouse just makes things so easy!

[LiveMusic]

Well, heck, that is uber cool, Rudy. I'm impressed with that pitch shift bass, wow.

I think I may still have a Zoom H1 and I have gotten some amazing quality out of that and I sure don't know what I'm doing! I also bought a later model years ago, a Zoom-something, I think it is H4N. I have not used either in years, need to revisit.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by LiveMusic

Well, heck, that is uber cool, Rudy. I'm impressed with that pitch shift bass, wow.

I think I may still have a Zoom H1 and I have gotten some amazing quality out of that and I sure don't know what I'm doing! I also bought a later model years ago, a Zoom-something, I think it is H4N. I have not used either in years, need to revisit.

Thanks. Yes, the "pitch shift bass" is SO weird! I was most definitely surprised by how closely it mimics a real upright bass. Some of the realism might be due to the nylon strung guitar I'm using, but I'll try out my steel strung acoustic sometime in the future.

Pitch shifting involves the device determining the pitch and then running it through the offset as an output. This process is usually referred to as "tracking", and will normally lag the audio input signal by a few milliseconds. It helps to have the R4 fairly close to the internal mic if the guitar isn't being plugged in so it can track the audio signal with minimal lag. In these examples I'm using the R4's internal mic exclusively to demo what it's capable of doing.

I owned an early Zoom H1 and traded it out for a Tascam DR-05. There are a lot of Zoom H series recorder users out there, so that's a testimony to their popularity.

[dnf777]

Originally Posted by jukeboxjoe

This device looks easy and fun. Though I have my computer, interface, and DAW, this may inspire me record more quickly (and more often!)

Thats what it boils down to for me. If it wasn't fun, I wouldn't spend hours voluntarily doing something! And the fact its easy is gravy.

I still use my interface, DAW, and even R20, but I have a small camera bag that I keep the R4 in, along with a tripod, phones, and mic cables, and take it on the go with me. its just so convenient and capable. As Rudy4 demonstrated, the on-board effects are not to shabby in the right hands, and can make quite impressive recordings as a stand-alone.

[Rosette]

Following this thread with interest! Thanks to those of you who have posted so much info and your recordings (which sound unbelievably good for a 200 dollar device). I love the throwback to the old cassette 4 track machines.

I'm unfamiliar with earlier iterations of these type of portable devices as I went from the 4 track cassette machines of the 90s to using DAWs.

For those of you who have it, is there an ability to input time signatures, so that a click track (or the internal metronome or whatever) could be set to 6/8 for example? I looked at some of Zoom's online demos but didn't see that addressed.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by Rosette

Following this thread with interest! Thanks to those of you who have posted so much info and your recordings (which sound unbelievably good for a 200 dollar device). I love the throwback to the old cassette 4 track machines.

I'm unfamiliar with earlier iterations of these type of portable devices as I went from the 4 track cassette machines of the 90s to using DAWs.

For those of you who have it, is there an ability to input time signatures, so that a click track (or the internal metronome or whatever) could be set to 6/8 for example? I looked at some of Zoom's online demos but didn't see that addressed.

I don't use a click, but the R4 has 84 built-in drum patterns as well as a click in various time signatures, as well as a pre-count. For clarification of all the details download the PDF users manual and see pages 33 & 34.