Sinker mahogany

[MtnDred]

I would like to know if anyone here has any experience with the sinker mahogany that Martin have available. Is there that much difference in the tone and sound of one of these compared to to any other mahogany and is the price increase really that justifiable for what you get. Or is there a better option that is available.

[Bruce Sexauer]

A rose is a rose is a rose. . . .you’d be paying for increased “story”. Water logged woods have an increased risk of degrade. Some water logged woods, especially in rivers, can have an increased mineral content. That means they weigh relatively more, potentially. The usual criteria for higher quality woods is a high stiffness to weight ratio, which is the opposite direction. On the other hand, if you’re itching for story, there’s probably little harm in it, big picture. IMO, of course.

[IndyHD28]

I commissioned a custom Adi/Sinker last April that finally arrived in December. So, it’s still quite new. When it arrived, I played it vs. an “authentic” model and a new custom Adi over Genuine. The Sinker was very close in tone to the much more expensive Authentic and clearly superior to the fine custom Adi/Genuine. It is best-of-breed in my opinion and worth the upgrade.

[TJNies]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

A rose is a rose is a rose. . . .you’d be paying for increased “story”. Water logged woods have an increased risk of degrade. Some water logged woods, especially in rivers, can have an increased mineral content. That means they weigh relatively more, potentially. The usual criteria for higher quality woods is a high stiffness to weight ratio, which is the opposite direction. On the other hand, if you’re itching for story, there’s probably little harm in it, big picture. IMO, of course.

While I am certainly not as experience as Mr Sexauer, I can opine that he is correct in that sinker is a bit heavier due to mineral content.

My recently-purchased Martin OM sinker is a touch heavier than a standard OM-18. But when I compared to the standard, mine was easily better-sounding. I would not have purchased had it not.

Perhaps there is something other than the sinker wood contributing to the sound, but I am ok with it!

[IndyHD28]

George Gruhn is renowned as perhaps the leading guitar historian in America. He has parlayed this expertise into one of the top if not the top vintage guitar seller in the country. He has a white paper on Sinker Mahogany on his website that concludes with this:

“When combined with Martin's superb Custom Shop workmanship, this [wood] has yielded instruments that we know are some of the finest quality new guitars made by any maker since prior to World War II.”

The entire paper should be read by anyone considering the purchase of a mahogany guitar [see below].

https://guitars.com/george-gruhn-dis...hogany-guitars

Some may postulate that Mr. Gruhn has guitars to sell and has profited handsomely from a very large order for these guitars with Martin in anticipation of there being a market demand for them. I would counter that Mr. Gruhn is an astute businessman who almost singlehandedly created the market for Sinker guitars but that he would not sacrifice his reputation for want of a temporary profit. This is the only new instrument where you can guarantee yourself a slice of “old growth” lumber from centuries past. I ask, why not take advantage of its temporary availability?

[MtnDred]

Thanks for the response this gives me things to contemplate. So here is something to ask when you are saying that because of this wood being sunken and absorbing minerals is the weigh a substantial amount like picking up a Les Paul or is it just a small amount. I am vary new to guitar and would like to get my first nice guitar in the future and when I do I would like to make sure that I do my homework beforehand. I have been reading about these Martins and base models as well as other brands that are available. Me not knowing much but I think I might want a mahogany guitar.

[IndyHD28]

I haven’t weighed it but my Sinker is much lighter than my rosewood Martin Dread just like any other Mahogany would be. In other words, IF Sinker weighs more than standard mahogany, it isn’t enough to be a factor in playability or your purchase decision.

One more for your senses....it smells delicious!

[Creekside Guitar]

There is definitely more than a "story" to Sinker Mahogany. Every sinker guitar I've played has been spectacular. There is no way you can tell me that a Mahogany log that was cut and harvested and then under water for a 100 years does not sound different than a Mahogany tree that was cut and harvested normally. Also, I think the part that is missing here is it is old wood. Everything a piece of wood goes through, up to and including the guitar build, will ultimately effect its tone.

[MtnDred]

Thanks creekside sound like you have a lot of first hand experience so is that with Martin only or are there other that builders that you have tried or are you a builder yourself plus one thing that I would like to know from whoever has experience if Sitka or adirondack impact the tone of a sinker

[jrb715]

What I can say is that the Huss and Dalton sinker mahogany guitars I've heard and played have all been exceptional, and, to my ears, different sounding than their other mahogany guitars. A Huss and Dalton sinker mahogany dread I played a couple of years ago is the best mahogany dread I've heard.

Will the Martins behave the same way? I don't know. I'm guessing a different source. But I imagine the sinker will be more than a "story" difference. Whether or not the difference is for the better I can't know.

[EverettWilliams]

Sinker mahogany is guaranteed not to go pink in the can.

[ALBD]

Originally Posted by EverettWilliams

Sinker mahogany is guaranteed not to go pink in the can.

We have a winner for most obscure reference of the year!

[hifivic]

Originally Posted by MtnDred

Thanks creekside sound like you have a lot of first hand experience so is that with Martin only or are there other that builders that you have tried or are you a builder yourself plus one thing that I would like to know from whoever has experience if Sitka or adirondack impact the tone of a sinker

Welcome to the forum! I can see your head spinning with opposing information from very knowledgeable people. I have played since the Beatles hit our shores in 1964. Allow me to share something I have learned after owning dozens of guitars over the years and most of the major brands. The top will have a far more significant effect on the tone, volume, sustain and projection than the back and sides of the guitar so pay more attention to the top. As a general rule although not gospel adirondack will indeed produce more volume, sustain and projection........more immediacy, more responsive to both light fingerstyle or balls out heavily picked chords. If budget allows typically a torrefied top is akin to adding a turbo whether sitka or adirondack. Two other pieces of advice if I may...........the builder trumps everything, a mediocre builder using wood thousands of years old guarded by unicorns in diamond encrusted caves may indeed not produce a better guitar than a gifted builder using standard well chosen woods. A gifted builder may indeed produce a sitka topped guitar that may outperform a adirondack topped guitar by a maker building hundreds of thousands of instruments a year so be careful with blanket statements. This brings up my last piece of advice ........builders that produce hundreds of thousands of guitars a year have enough expertise and experience to build fine well made guitars in most cases. They will range in sound from good to excellent and every now and then they will hit a homerun out of the park outstanding guitar. Problem is those home runs are far and few inbetween. This brings up the advantage of an individual luthier type company that may only produce 200-1200 guitars a year, your odds of getting incredibly consistent outstanding guitars is far better as they have the time to put in part of their souls ie., tone tapping each and every top. Good luck on your journey and most importantly use your ears, eyes and gut as your guide regardless what you read or opinion rendered as it is your wallet that will fund the guitar and it is YOUR ears that must be pleased in the long run.

[hillin]

Sinker mahogany are mahogany that were harvest some 300 years ago (the wood itself is much older than that) and were intended to be used in shipbuilding. The logs were harvested and floated on a nearby river, where a workshop located downstream would further process them However, some denser logs, which does not float much, may be trapped by the river bed and left there to be unveiled hundred of years later.

This kind of wood is already denser than average, and as a comment mentioned above, its density may be even more increased by the mineral content etc. (although I'm not sure about this). On all accounts, it's dense. Denser wood tends to have a higher "quality factor", or "Q factor", which is a sought after attribute for back wood (ignore the side wood because it barely contributes acoustically). Generally speaking, the higher the Q factor, the more acoustically active the back wood. For example, Brazilian rosewood is famous not only because of its exotic look, but also its high density, and the resulting phenomenal Q factor.

That being said, it's not always the higher Q factor the better for back woods. When we talk about the warmth and woody tone of mahogany back guitars, that's because it has a certain medium range of Q factor which enhances the mid frequencies and has a relatively shorter sustain than rosewood. For guitar with a high-Q mahogany back, I would expect its tonal properties to be closer to rosewood, yielding a more ringy tone and more sustain. If that is your cup of tea, why not go for a rosewood guitar directly?

Still there are more factors to be considered. Because this kind of wood is rare enough, because it's processed by the prominent Martin custom shop, and because of the careful matched selection of other components, especially the top wood, the resulting guitar is surely top of quality. I'd say if such attention is paid, mediocre wood could be turned into a terrific sounding guitar. How much would the extraordinary tonal properties of the sinker mahogany contribute to the resulting sound? I don't know. But a great guitar with a nice story, that doesn't sound like a bad deal.

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

...The usual criteria for higher quality woods is a high stiffness to weight ratio, which is the opposite direction....

I believe the stiffness-to-weight ratio only applies to the top wood.

[EverettWilliams]

Originally Posted by ALBD

We have a winner for most obscure reference of the year!

Thank you!!! The year is young, but I’m glad someone appreciated it.