Apprentice Prices

[phil1]

Like with all commodities, the world of guitar pricing (luthier and factory built) is filled with smoke and mirrors. As it should be, it's partly driven by awesome instruments and sublime artistry. But just as much, it's driven by the right endorsements, astute branding, and business savvy. In the best cases like Olson and Somogyi, they have all of these things. In the worst case, though, sharp branding and business savvy can lead to pretty crappy guitars at outrageous prices (my observation of Gibson acoustics, for example).

While I can hardly believe that people will pay 20 - 40k for an acoustic guitar, no one is forcing them to buy. So if they've got the cash, why not. I'm mostly glad that a few builders get to have their dream job, health insurance, and enough for retirement years. And in the case of the luthier-built guitar world I do believe there has been a trickle-down. The upshot for every other builder and factory is that those select few at the top have been steadily boosting the price everyone else can charge. So cheers to Jim and Ervin!

[gitarro]

Originally Posted by SiliconValleySJ

Drew Heinonen for sure, and I believe Brian as well. It's all over older Applegate descriptions and the relationship between those two men (and the Applegate family) is documented.

They are the only 2 that can lay claim to building with Jim Olson for any amount of substantial time.

As I recall reading, Heinonen was not so much an apprentice in tbe same way as somogyi took on apprentices as he was specifically hired by Olson to help him build his guitars over about 2 years as a shop assistant. Of course in the process he learned the ins and outs of how olson builds. I dont know about how Applegate learned but perhaps it was on tbe same basis.

On somogyi and his apprentices a lot of it is marketing. On one hand somogyi got some assistants with very good wood working skills to help him build which' would have helped keep the fit and finish of his guitars very good while saving him a lot of the work. His entrance test made sure only those with unearthly wood working skills could get through. On the other hand their benefit from working with him was to give them instant customer demand from association with somogyi.

The upshot is that when they hit the heights togrther it is towering. One of the two very greatest guitsrs I have ever played was a 2001 somogyi MD that was built by somogyi and probably his greatest apprentice Matsuda. Unbelievable tone and responsiveness.

[PonchoFrancisco]

Active self-promotion has a lot to do it. Given that the top builders are using the best woods they can get their hands on, what's the real difference between a $40,000 guitar and a $10,000 guitar (if there isn't a ton of bling)?
Sergei De Jonge is one of the the best, and his guitars are in the lower price range. For some reason, he sells more to Europe and Asia. Many of those who attend his building school end up doing very well too.

[jmagill]

With Dream Guitars only a short drive from me, I’ve probably had the opportunity to play more guitars by Olson and Somogyi and their various apprentices than most. Both ‘schools’ make superb instruments; they’re just… different, and some guitarists will prefer one over the other… or have both.

Warren Buffett famously said, “Cost is what you pay; Value is what you get.” The two are related but they are NOT the same. You get to decide the Value, while the market decides the Cost. If the market's Cost aligns with your Value, you buy; if not, you don't. Value is a Quest; Cost is a logistical problem. In spite of this, it appears that so many on these forums continue to equate the two.

I find the Value for guitars from both of these schools to be similarly high, but as the OP notes, there can be a significant variance in Cost. Yes, marketing plays into this, but if, ultimately, the emperor has no clothes, the public figures that out pretty quickly. They cost what they cost because the public is willing to pay it and think they got good value (BTW, if you think Olsons & Somogyis cost a lot, check out John Monteleone's archtops, some of which sell for multiple six-figures).

I also believe that thinking the cost difference in two guitars is primarily due to their physical specs – rare woods, bling, special features, etc., is looking at it the wrong way. What you’re really paying for is the knowledge and skill behind the hands doing the work and the market decides what that costs.

So why do Somogyi-school guitars cost more than Olsons? I’m sure I don’t know, but it’s worth mentioning that with 40+ years of building, Ervin is arguably the ‘Grand Master’ of American lutherie, and literally wrote the book (two actually) on how to push a guitar’s design to the bleeding edge in order to maximize tone. For some luthiers, his two-book set, The Responsive Guitar and Making the Responsive Guitar are akin to scripture, and those who graduate from his lengthy and rigorous apprenticeship program carry away with them his decades of building knowledge. Maybe that’s worth something.

[Jamiejoon]

I am lucky to own three guitars by Somogyi apprentices, from different periods of Ervin's career, and they are each very different. Two of them you would not think came from the same branch of the tree. I have never thought of them as cheap (ha!) Somogyis, but rather very much their own thing - heavily influenced by Somogyi, but drawing in other inspiration and clearly searching for something different.

[jimmy bookout]

Originally Posted by jmagill

With Dream Guitars only a short drive from me, I’ve probably had the opportunity to play more guitars by Olson and Somogyi and their various apprentices than most. Both ‘schools’ make superb instruments; they’re just… different, and some guitarists will prefer one over the other… or have both.

Warren Buffett famously said, “Cost is what you pay; Value is what you get.” The two are related but they are NOT the same. You get to decide the Value, while the market decides the Cost. If the market's Cost aligns with your Value, you buy; if not, you don't. Value is a Quest; Cost is a logistical problem. In spite of this, it appears that so many on these forums continue to equate the two.

I find the Value for guitars from both of these schools to be similarly high, but as the OP notes, there can be a significant variance in Cost. Yes, marketing plays into this, but if, ultimately, the emperor has no clothes, the public figures that out pretty quickly. They cost what they cost because the public is willing to pay it and think they got good value (BTW, if you think Olsons & Somogyis cost a lot, check out John Monteleone's archtops, some of which sell for multiple six-figures).

I also believe that thinking the cost difference in two guitars is primarily due to their physical specs – rare woods, bling, special features, etc., is looking at it the wrong way. What you’re really paying for is the knowledge and skill behind the hands doing the work and the market decides what that costs.

So why do Somogyi-school guitars cost more than Olsons? I’m sure I don’t know, but it’s worth mentioning that with 40+ years of building, Ervin is arguably the ‘Grand Master’ of American lutherie, and literally wrote the book (two actually) on how to push a guitar’s design to the bleeding edge in order to maximize tone. For some luthiers, his two-book set, The Responsive Guitar and Making the Responsive Guitar are akin to scripture, and those who graduate from his lengthy and rigorous apprenticeship program carry away with them his decades of building knowledge. Maybe that’s worth something.

Jim,
Your post should be REQUIRED reading for EVERY member here!
At least once a month, a thread is started about why XXX guitar costs so much. And the OP usually doesn't want to hear reasons or heaven forbid, learn something, they just want to be mad about it (pricing).

Thanks for a perfectly written response, which applies to ALL luxury goods, not just luthier built guitars.

[Crash-VR]

I’m not wealthy by any means. I’m actually quite poor. But I’ve chosen that as a lifestyle because it allows me to stay focused on the things I love most in life. Which coming in at a strong #1 is my music. I’m 42 and I’ve been playing for 34 years. Somehow my guitar has stayed at the forefront of my life that entire time. Down the road of life I’ve made some interesting turns and had some interesting luck both good and bad. I have an opportunity to get a Traugott coming up and I feel like it’s one of my life’s greatest blessings. My musical journey has caused me to be a late bloomer with my style. I’ve been on a quest finding my way, resisting my natural tendency towards acoustic, chasing the dragon on my electric. I’ve owned and put thousands of hours into my Santa Cruz OM. In that time I’ve lost close to the cost of a Traugott buying and selling electric guitars and amps. Trying to find what I naturally find on my acoustic. Now that I’m clear on this, and I have a once in a lifetime chance to buy a truly high end acoustic, for me, I see clear value with minimal risk in getting a Traugott. His design ethos and attitude towards his guitars perfectly resonate with my actions and attitude towards my music. For that kind of money I want a guitar made by the master not the apprentice. I know I’m getting that, and I know that he gets ultra consistent resultsby doing the work himself and using the same woods on practically a single design. I see true value in what I’m my mind is the best for my art.

[gitarro]

Originally Posted by Crash-VR

I’m not wealthy by any means. I’m actually quite poor. But I’ve chosen that as a lifestyle because it allows me to stay focused on the things I love most in life. Which coming in at a strong #1 is my music. I’m 42 and I’ve been playing for 34 years. Somehow my guitar has stayed at the forefront of my life that entire time. Down the road of life I’ve made some interesting turns and had some interesting luck both good and bad. I have an opportunity to get a Traugott coming up and I feel like it’s one of my life’s greatest blessings. My musical journey has caused me to be a late bloomer with my style. I’ve been on a quest finding my way, resisting my natural tendency towards acoustic, chasing the dragon on my electric. I’ve owned and put thousands of hours into my Santa Cruz OM. In that time I’ve lost close to the cost of a Traugott buying and selling electric guitars and amps. Trying to find what I naturally find on my acoustic. Now that I’m clear on this, and I have a once in a lifetime chance to buy a truly high end acoustic, for me, I see clear value with minimal risk in getting a Traugott. His design ethos and attitude towards his guitars perfectly resonate with my actions and attitude towards my music. For that kind of money I want a guitar made by the master not the apprentice. I know I’m getting that, and I know that he gets ultra consistent resultsby doing the work himself and using the same woods on practically a single design. I see true value in what I’m my mind is the best for my art.

If you like the tone of a traugott there is going to be nothing quite like one. The traugott I once owned was one of the 3 best guitars have ever played with such fatness in the notes and powerful fundamental though with 3 dimensional harmonics ringing yet. I liken its crispness and clarity to a lightsabre...however I do caution that this same brilliance can become wearying to the ear for some people in the long run.

[Crash-VR]

Originally Posted by gitarro

If you like the tone of a traugott there is going to be nothing quite like one. The traugott I once owned was one of the 3 best guitars have ever played with such fatness in the notes and powerful fundamental though with 3 dimensional harmonics ringing yet. I liken its crispness and clarity to a lightsabre...however I do caution that this same brilliance can become wearying to the ear for some people in the long run.

Those are all the characteristics I’m going for. I prefer the zing of new strings, so I’m going for a guitar with brilliance in the high end and fatness to the notes. I’m getting the BK because I want even tonality with some extra low end.


What were the other 2 guitars?! I’m sure there are many guitars that I would love. I’ve just learned that the buying and selling merry go round will consume me if I’m not very careful. I know the Traugott will be the best I can possibly get at the time, then I’ll put the grail search out of my mind.

[gitarro]

Originally Posted by Crash-VR

Those are all the characteristics I’m going for. I prefer the zing of new strings, so I’m going for a guitar with brilliance in the high end and fatness to the notes. I’m getting the BK because I want even tonality with some extra low end.


What were the other 2 guitars?! I’m sure there are many guitars that I would love. I’ve just learned that the buying and selling merry go round will consume me if I’m not very careful. I know the Traugott will be the best I can possibly get at the time, then I’ll put the grail search out of my mind.

The Model R was the one that I owned and the bass that it had was just wonderful for the size and superbly balanced. The other two guitars that were probably even more liked by me were a somogyi mofified dreadnought and a kim Walker 16 inch jumbo.