The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 06-20-2017, 10:23 PM
SunnyDee SunnyDee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 1,031
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by robj144 View Post
I don't get the 11 either, but if you just Google CAGED, you get answers very quickly on the method in general. It works on building chords of the C, A, G, E, and D shapes. So, I understand there's 5 different shapes per chord in one octave for the CAGED system, but I don't understand the 11 either.
I understand what it is. I don't understand why it's supposed to be a good way to learn. It seems like a lot more effort than necessary with less payoff than other ways of learning, but I assume I'm missing something.
__________________
"Militantly left-handed."

Lefty Acoustics

Martin 00-15M
Taylor 320e Baritone

Cheap Righty Classical (played upside down ala Elizabeth Cotten)
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-21-2017, 04:22 AM
Mr. Jelly's Avatar
Mr. Jelly Mr. Jelly is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Sioux City, Iowa
Posts: 7,848
Default

I never have learned the caged system. But after fifty years of playing I probably use it some how. When I started learning guitar there were no learning tools. Well there was one, your ears.
__________________
Waterloo WL-S, K & K mini
Waterloo WL-S Deluxe, K & K mini
Iris OG, 12 fret, slot head, K & K mini

Follow The Yellow Brick Road
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-21-2017, 07:14 AM
jimrivera jimrivera is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 57
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunnyDee View Post
I'm confused in general about the point of the CAGED system. I don't get why people put so much effort into learning only major chords. Since I didn't learn the fretboard that way, I can't figure out why it's supposed to be an advantage. But, that being said, I'm still curious what other people are doing with it, because I do want to learn anything that is an advantage, so I have a question:

You said you learned all 11 of the E and A shapes, meaning, I guess, 11 E shapes and 11 A shapes? What 11? I mean, I think of the E shape as one shape. One shape, root on string 6, 5th on 5, octave on 4, 3rd on 3, etc. I have to put a barre on it to make it movable, but I still think one shape, move it up and down fretboard, and it plays major chords with roots on the 6 string, that's it. What are the 11 different shapes that take a couple months to learn?
The 11 shapes are:

(Triad)
1-major
2-minor

(quadads)
3-dom 7
4-min 7
5-maj 7
6-minor 7b5
7-dim 7
8-sus 2
9-sus 4
10-maj 6
11-min 6

The E-shape is a 6th root shape, the A is a 5th string, the D is a 4th, the C is generally a 5th string root.

The purpose of the system is to be able to play these chords in any key, all over the fretboard. The C shape also has a 5th string root but as it uses a different shape, a major 7th for example in the C shape will sound different than an A shape in the same general area of the guitar neck.

As I see it, the purposes of the CAGED system are to be able to:

1) play hundreds of different chords using a much smaller subset of shapes
2) (as said above) to transpose a key easily to another

I created two study guides to help - BUT THEY ARE for LEFTHANDED players so the diagrams need to be reversed for righties:

E/A shapes:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/r1vlnernhe...hapes.pdf?dl=0

C/D shapes:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zai02akafx...tures.pdf?dl=0

I may or may not do the G shape as they are not used as much.

Also, I did not incude the fingerings for the shapes, but that is described in Justin's Chord Construction Guide, or you can use your judgement, but I'd STRONGLY recommend getting his materials, they are tremendously helpful. My goal is to be a complete player, not just someone who knows 20 or 100 songs.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-21-2017, 07:32 AM
SunnyDee SunnyDee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 1,031
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimrivera View Post
The 11 shapes are:

(Triad)
1-major
2-minor

(quadads)
3-dom 7
4-min 7
5-maj 7
6-minor 7b5
7-dim 7
8-sus 2
9-sus 4
10-maj 6
11-min 6

... My goal is to be a complete player, not just someone who knows 20 or 100 songs.
Ah, it all comes clear now.

I do not think most people learning the "CAGED system" do it this way. In fact, I have seen some comments that indicate they didn't realize the shapes they were learning didn't have any minor chords in them and had no idea how to form minors, so I'm pretty sure they didn't know this. In any case, the CAGED idea is just a way of describing the patterns of notes/intervals on the fretboard in standard tuning. Your way is closer to the way I learned.

"Complete player" me, too, and left-handed.
Thanks for sharing this. I get what you are doing. Sounds like you're doing great.
__________________
"Militantly left-handed."

Lefty Acoustics

Martin 00-15M
Taylor 320e Baritone

Cheap Righty Classical (played upside down ala Elizabeth Cotten)
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-21-2017, 07:41 AM
buddyhu buddyhu is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 8,127
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunnyDee View Post
I understand what it is. I don't understand why it's supposed to be a good way to learn. It seems like a lot more effort than necessary with less payoff than other ways of learning, but I assume I'm missing something.
Maybe you are not missing something.

I had been casually looking at CAGED for a few months, and I hadn't found it a boon to my playing or understanding. And in a somewhat related development, I decided to start taking in person lessons about 6 weeks ago. I recently asked my new teacher (who graduated from Berklee) about CAGED, and his opinion was that it was not the best way to approach the learning process about the different positions up the neck. He is teaching me scales and talking about the differing notes in the chords, and that is falling into place a bit more easily for me (though it is early yet...so I don't know if that will take me where I want to go either).

I guess if CAGED works for a person, then it is good, maybe great. But for other folks, it just might not click and/or be an efficient way to learn.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 06-21-2017, 07:49 AM
SunnyDee SunnyDee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 1,031
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddyhu View Post
Maybe you are not missing something.

I had been casually looking at CAGED for a few months, and I hadn't found it a boon to my playing or understanding. And in a somewhat related development, I decided to start taking in person lessons about 6 weeks ago. I recently asked my new teacher (who graduated from Berklee) about CAGED, and his opinion was that it was not the best way to approach the learning process about the different positions up the neck. He is teaching me scales and talking about the differing notes in the chords, and that is falling into place a bit more easily for me (though it is early yet...so I don't know if that will take me where I want to go either).

I guess if CAGED works for a person, then it is good, maybe great. But for other folks, it just might not click and/or be an efficient way to learn.
I think it's all about seeing the patterns that exist and understanding the relationships. The thing is the CAGED system is just one way of describing the shapes/patterns that exist. It didn't invent the patterns. I think it's like language learning. Since it's so complex, it can be approached in many different ways. The most helpful realization is that all the ways end up in the same place. I train language teachers and one of things I tell them about teaching methods is, "Everything works sometimes."
__________________
"Militantly left-handed."

Lefty Acoustics

Martin 00-15M
Taylor 320e Baritone

Cheap Righty Classical (played upside down ala Elizabeth Cotten)

Last edited by SunnyDee; 06-21-2017 at 08:01 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-21-2017, 07:50 AM
devellis's Avatar
devellis devellis is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 8,399
Default

I use partial chords based on CAGED much more than the full chords. Of course, it depends on what you want to play. The D shape is a partial form of the C shape, in essence. And the shape that folk and blues players refer to as the "long A" (where you barre the first 4 strings at the 2nd fret and then plunk the pinky down on the first string, 5th fret) is a partial G. I find those two moveable shapes more useful and easier to play than the full C or G shapes.

Once you've mastered the major forms, it's pretty easy to figure out variants, like minor (flat the third) or 7th (add the flatted 7th). For fingerpicking blues, I get by without too many more complex forms. The diminished shape on the first 4 strings is a separate moveable shape that's useful. With those partial chords and combining with open bass strings when appropriate, I can get the sounds I'm looking for. Add thumb wrapping for at least the 6th string (and sometimes both the 6th and 5th), and you can get a whole lot of chord shapes in a bunch of different positions.

Although some of those unorthodox shapes (like the Gary Davis shape based on a C7 using a two-string thumb wrap at the third fret of the shape's fret span) I think emerged independently of the CAGED system, knowing the basics of the CAGED system helps make sense of them, as they're virtually always some short of extension of the note groupings the CAGED system would use. So, in addition to being a tool for getting around he fingerboard, the CAGED system is useful (for me, actually more useful) as a way of understanding why certain partial-chord shapes work in various parts of the neck.

What I know about the CAGED system, I learned more organically than formally. I learned some partial chords (typically first 4 strings) that were moveable. Then I did some reading on CAGED and realized that the partial chord shapes I was using were grounded in the shapes that comprise the CAGED system.
__________________
Bob DeVellis
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-21-2017, 08:05 AM
Kerbie Kerbie is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 28,635
Default

Devellis just said it perfectly. I know the CAGED system, but for me, it's more about understanding relationships on the fretboard. I use it with partial chords often. It gives you shapes, but you don't have to use the entire shape. CAGED also gives you valuable knowledge about scales. It helped me learn my way around the entire fretboard when I began to see the scales that underlie the CAGED chord shapes.

I think the CAGED system is very valuable, but less for 6-string chord shapes and more so for what I described above.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-21-2017, 08:11 AM
SunnyDee SunnyDee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 1,031
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by devellis View Post
And the shape that folk and blues players refer to as the "long A" (where you barre the first 4 strings at the 2nd fret and then plunk the pinky down on the first string, 5th fret) is a partial G.
Are you describing A7?
__________________
"Militantly left-handed."

Lefty Acoustics

Martin 00-15M
Taylor 320e Baritone

Cheap Righty Classical (played upside down ala Elizabeth Cotten)
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-21-2017, 08:24 AM
amyFB amyFB is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Lehigh Valley, Eastern PA
Posts: 4,599
Default

I did some fresh reading on the CAGED system yesterday after browsing this thread.

Previously I would stare in disbelief at the charts , asking myself - how the heck does anyone form that chord shape? Now I think it's not for the making of a chord, but to grok the pattern of the scales notes of the chord, depending which shape is applied.

I never spent any time trying to work with the CAGED system.

But I did and still do spend a lot of time working with what I consider a mini-caged system that uses three movable shapes with the root anchor on either the 1, 2 or 3 string.

My suspicion for my self is that some fresh work on caged system might help to accelerate my ingrained memory of scale patterns/ i'll get right on that....in a week or month or so....
__________________
amyFb

Huss & Dalton CM
McKnight MacNaught
Breedlove Custom 000
Albert & Mueller S
Martin LXE
Voyage-Air VM04
Eastman AR605CE
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-21-2017, 08:36 AM
jimrivera jimrivera is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 57
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by amyFB View Post
But I did and still do spend a lot of time working with what I consider a mini-caged system that uses three movable shapes with the root anchor on either the 1, 2 or 3 string.
I suspect that you might be referring to triads:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vf0xdaoskt...riads.pdf?dl=0
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-21-2017, 08:38 AM
amyFB amyFB is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Lehigh Valley, Eastern PA
Posts: 4,599
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimrivera View Post
I suspect that you might be referring to triads:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vf0xdaoskt...riads.pdf?dl=0
100% correct - i've posted my own cheat sheet in the past here at AGF, similar to this.

i also teach a workshop twice a year on triads for guitarists.

triads changed my life as a guitar player - for the better, the way better.
__________________
amyFb

Huss & Dalton CM
McKnight MacNaught
Breedlove Custom 000
Albert & Mueller S
Martin LXE
Voyage-Air VM04
Eastman AR605CE
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-21-2017, 08:41 AM
Kerbie Kerbie is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 28,635
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunnyDee View Post
Are you describing A7?
No, he's describing an A, typically called a "long A." Same as the open A, with another root on the top string in the 5th fret. It's not an A7 because there is no G in it. To play an A7, just move the pinky off the high A and put the second or third finger on the high G in the 3rd fret.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-21-2017, 09:20 AM
SunnyDee SunnyDee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 1,031
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerbie View Post
No, he's describing an A, typically called a "long A." Same as the open A, with another root on the top string in the 5th fret. It's not an A7 because there is no G in it. To play an A7, just move the pinky off the high A and put the second or third finger on the high G in the 3rd fret.
Oh, right, thanks. I read that wrong and was picturing that G.
__________________
"Militantly left-handed."

Lefty Acoustics

Martin 00-15M
Taylor 320e Baritone

Cheap Righty Classical (played upside down ala Elizabeth Cotten)
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-21-2017, 09:21 AM
SunnyDee SunnyDee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 1,031
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimrivera View Post
I suspect that you might be referring to triads:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vf0xdaoskt...riads.pdf?dl=0
Beautiful. This one shows how they fit together in a scale, too.

http://www.dee.email/OPEN/triadcolorsscale.jpg
__________________
"Militantly left-handed."

Lefty Acoustics

Martin 00-15M
Taylor 320e Baritone

Cheap Righty Classical (played upside down ala Elizabeth Cotten)
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=