Songs to practice modes

[Monk of Funk]

I would like to try my hand at playing some modal stuff, or possibly even some other scales that I don't normally use.

But I was wondering if anyone knew some good background music, or maybe songs for that sort of thing, and which scales would be used for those.

It doesn't have to be complex. in fact more simple is better. Just a drill of two or 3 chords or something is fine. But just a simple drone is not complex enough. I'd really like to try going between different scales sort of thing.

[walternewton]

Check out this post by JonPR from a previous discussion:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...23&postcount=7

[Monk of Funk]

Originally Posted by walternewton

Check out this post by JonPR from a previous discussion:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...23&postcount=7

Thanks, but I was looking for stuff where I would have to change from one mode to another during the progression. Or one where I could mix and match a couple of them.

This looks more like progressions that work well in a single mode. I mean, maybe you can use more than one, but that piece of information is not listed there, if that's the case.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

Thanks, but I was looking for stuff where I would have to change from one mode to another during the progression. Or one where I could mix and match a couple of them.

In modal music, different chords tend to mean different scales (unlike in conventional key-based music).

A good example is Freddie Hubbard's Little Sunflower:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtB8dEuEmNM
It spends a long time on Dm7 (D dorian mode) before moving to Ebmaj7 (Eb lydian), and then to Dmaj7 (D lydian or ionian).

Likewise Herbie Hancock's Maiden Voyage, which is four different 7sus4 chords, and you have a few options on each chord (mixolydian, dorian, aeolian, phrygian).

The archetypal example was Miles Davis Flamenco Sketches, 5 different modes changing at random (when the players felt like it):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamenco_Sketches

There are very few examples in rock (that I know of) of varying modes.
On the Beatles' Norwegian Wood you can hear E mixolydian changing to E dorian to E major and back to mixolydian. (Maybe inspired by Miles Davis's All Blues, which flips from G mix to G dorian and back.)
Joe Satriani's Flying in a Blue Dream is in C lydian, and features 3 other lydian modes: on Ab, F and G.

It's pretty easy to set up your own modal BT. Choose any chords you like (triads) - preferably not in the same key (eg as in the above tracks) - and with each one you can use one of 3 modes: ionian, lydian or mixolydian on major chords, dorian aeolian or phrygian on minor chords. And you can of course flip between any of those 3 modes on each chord, to compare the sounds.
If you use power chords, then all 6 modes will fit on any of them.
(To use locrian, you need a diminished chord, or m7b5.)

[Monk of Funk]

Originally Posted by JonPR

In modal music, different chords tend to mean different scales (unlike in conventional key-based music).

A good example is Freddie Hubbard's Little Sunflower:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtB8dEuEmNM
It spends a long time on Dm7 (D dorian mode) before moving to Ebmaj7 (Eb lydian), and then to Dmaj7 (D lydian or ionian).

Likewise Herbie Hancock's Maiden Voyage, which is four different 7sus4 chords, and you have a few options on each chord (mixolydian, dorian, aeolian, phrygian).

The archetypal example was Miles Davis Flamenco Sketches, 5 different modes changing at random (when the players felt like it):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamenco_Sketches

There are very few examples in rock (that I know of) of varying modes.
On the Beatles' Norwegian Wood you can hear E mixolydian changing to E dorian to E major and back to mixolydian. (Maybe inspired by Miles Davis's All Blues, which flips from G mix to G dorian and back.)
Joe Satriani's Flying in a Blue Dream is in C lydian, and features 3 other lydian modes: on Ab, F and G.

It's pretty easy to set up your own modal BT. Choose any chords you like (triads) - preferably not in the same key (eg as in the above tracks) - and with each one you can use one of 3 modes: ionian, lydian or mixolydian on major chords, dorian aeolian or phrygian on minor chords. And you can of course flip between any of those 3 modes on each chord, to compare the sounds.
If you use power chords, then all 6 modes will fit on any of them.
(To use locrian, you need a diminished chord, or m7b5.)

I see, I'm not particularly interested in learning that, if only some odd songs take advantage of it. I probably wouldn't like those songs all that much I think.

But, I hear often enough people talking about going into this scale or that one, and to me, it never really feels that way. Sometimes I find there's an extra pentatonic I can use, or something like that, but for the most part, not really. It seems to me more like one scale, where I can sometimes use extra notes also.

But, I hear people talking about using different scales and stuff also, so, I'm wondering if there's maybe something I don't know.

Idk, I'm trying to learn more, but I don't know what it is I'm not using from a theory perspective. Maybe I'm missing nothing, and what's different between me and others is just what we choose to play. Idk.

I feel like just taking some background music, and recording a video where I solo over it, and then just asking the question "what theory am I not taking advantage of, that could be cool?" Because I have no idea.

I think I'm at the point, where anything I learn will be limited in usefulness. Like, there will be no huge groundbreaking information that will help me everywhere, but more like, little things. But idk, I could be wrong.

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

But, I hear often enough people talking about going into this scale or that one, and to me, it never really feels that way. Sometimes I find there's an extra pentatonic I can use, or something like that, but for the most part, not really. It seems to me more like one scale, where I can sometimes use extra notes also.

The important thing to remember is that you can always use all 12 notes. The 8 notes which are diatonic to your note are "inside" but there are also "outside" notes - and we often play them.

But, I hear people talking about using different scales and stuff also, so, I'm wondering if there's maybe something I don't know.

There are some people who talk about, say, playing over a G-C-D progression as going from G ionian to C lydian to D mixolydian, but since those scales are all the same notes, this seems like a really confusing way of thinking about it to me.

I feel like just taking some background music, and recording a video where I solo over it, and then just asking the question "what theory am I not taking advantage of, that could be cool?" Because I have no idea.

Well, use your ears. What do you hear? Ultimately, good music is not created by playing a scale but rather by playing a melody. A lot of guitarists get stuck thinking in shapes, which usually means that all the notes in the scale are considered to be more-or-less interchangable "safe" notes. But good musicians recognize that each scale degree has its own relationship with the tonic note.

But that really has to come from listening. Otherwise it's like a colorblind person saying, "Well, I know that green and blue go well together, even though to me they're both just different shades of gray, so I'll just sort of slather them around and maybe it'll be something cool."

One thing I'd ask is how much you're playing with an awareness of the chord tones? That's a piece of theory that requires you to use your ears, but that most people who are stuck in shapes are unaware of. How is playing chord tones on strong beats different from playing non-chord tones on those beats? How is playing a chord's fifth over the chord different from playing the root? And so on.

[usb_chord]

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

I see, I'm not particularly interested in learning that, if only some odd songs take advantage of it. I probably wouldn't like those songs all that much I think.

If you don't care for jazz (or progressive forms of rock and such) ...why even study modes?

[Monk of Funk]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

The important thing to remember is that you can always use all 12 notes. The 8 notes which are diatonic to your note are "inside" but there are also "outside" notes - and we often play them.



There are some people who talk about, say, playing over a G-C-D progression as going from G ionian to C lydian to D mixolydian, but since those scales are all the same notes, this seems like a really confusing way of thinking about it to me.



Well, use your ears. What do you hear? Ultimately, good music is not created by playing a scale but rather by playing a melody. A lot of guitarists get stuck thinking in shapes, which usually means that all the notes in the scale are considered to be more-or-less interchangable "safe" notes. But good musicians recognize that each scale degree has its own relationship with the tonic note.

But that really has to come from listening. Otherwise it's like a colorblind person saying, "Well, I know that green and blue go well together, even though to me they're both just different shades of gray, so I'll just sort of slather them around and maybe it'll be something cool."

One thing I'd ask is how much you're playing with an awareness of the chord tones? That's a piece of theory that requires you to use your ears, but that most people who are stuck in shapes are unaware of. How is playing chord tones on strong beats different from playing non-chord tones on those beats? How is playing a chord's fifth over the chord different from playing the root? And so on.

Chord tones are something I just do by ear. I look at it like you said. 12 notes. The key, and then some other ones.

Ya, I agree, some people think of switching modes that way, and that is overcomplicated for nothing in my book. But Jazz will change like that from chord to chord sometimes, so, for jazz I understand that. I generally don't like that sort of jazz though.

I hear people doing stuff that I don't do. I am just not sure if it is that they are thinking theory wise as I do, but are having fresh ideas, or whether they are applying some ways of looking at it, that I am not.

[Monk of Funk]

Originally Posted by usb_chord

If you don't care for jazz (or progressive forms of rock and such) ...why even study modes?

Idk. maybe I don't wanna study modes.

I wanna study some theory that I can use to take my playing to another level.

Maybe there isn't really anything more like that theory wise.

I though maybe modes might be something that could be used in soloing somehow.

Like maybe stuff like, in a diatonic chord progression, when the ii chord comes along, rather than play the key scale, like whatever mode ii tonic would be, you play the aeolian scale on top there. Essentially solo over the ii as though it were a vi.

Idk, I'm not married to the idea of learning modes. But I'd like to learned some advanced stuff that is useful. Whether that is in improvising with chords, or solo kind of stuff.

Maybe my only limitation is my imagination, and my dexterity right now, idk. But I'd like to learn something.

[mr. beaumont]

Jazz is all about changing your thinking from chord to chord. It really seems like that's what you're after...I'd be interested to hear what jazz you like that doesn't address the chords? The free stuff?

It's been a debate among armchair quarterbacks for years about the applcation of modes in jazz. People who actually play jazz know you need a navigation system...for some tunes, modes make a lot of sense. And not just major scale modes--Melodic Minor modes are very commonly useful in jazz. It's insane to think Dorian to Mixolydian to Ionian over a simple ii V I. Ridiculous...but four bars of Dmaj7#11? Lydian makes a whole lotta sense. A G7#5b9? Try an Ab melodic minor. People inevitably say, "well, the beboppers didn't think like that" and of course they din't...find me a bebop tune with 8 bars of a susb9 chord in the middle.

It's all about finding the most direct route--something you can internalize quickly if there's not a lot of time to practice a tune.

Monk, sounds to me like you're in a rut. Definitely time to do a lot of listening to new stuff and look for the "how the hell did he do that?" moments.
A lot of times, when players talk about using a mode over a certain chord or progression, they're really just talking about that--their navigation system. There's no rule that says those are the only notes you can use...I've done a lot of transcribing off Davis' "Kind of Blue," and for example, on "So What," Davis is the only player who really sticks to JUST the notes from the mode.

Trane took things out further rather quickly...his stuff soon was less based on a mode but more on a "key center." The options really open up then.

[Bern]

Perhaps, this may help...
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lesso...ns_part_1.html

[Monk of Funk]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Jazz is all about changing your thinking from chord to chord. It really seems like that's what you're after...I'd be interested to hear what jazz you like that doesn't address the chords? The free stuff?

Jazz has more chord progressions that are not diatonically based. Some jazz is that way and some isn't but it is far more frequent than in other forms of more popular music. In more popular music, you can stick to the same key, and you're good for the most part, with maybe one chord here or there that is different, or one key change at some point, or something like that.

Jazz will sometimes switch key very quickly from one chord to the next, so you can't stick to the same scale for too long. You are forced to change.

I find free jazz even worse.

My approach is very key based, which has a sort of "predictable" nature to it. So jazz will frustrate me sometimes, because it does weird things that I don't find particularly pleasing, and that you have to know in advance, because it is unpredictable, and you will have to switch keys a lot.

Because of this, it can be helpful to look at every chord as its own mode. In more popular music, it would be odd to think of it that way. You can just think of the whole tune as in some key and stick to that key scale. It doesn't matter what degree you happen to be on. In jazz you change so frequently, that it can make more sense to think of just play over a chord that is the vi chord in the key as playing aeolian mode, rather than just playing the major key the song is in, over a chord that happens to be the 6th degree of that key scale.

It's been a debate among armchair quarterbacks for years about the applcation of modes in jazz. People who actually play jazz know you need a navigation system...for some tunes, modes make a lot of sense. And not just major scale modes--Melodic Minor modes are very commonly useful in jazz. It's insane to think Dorian to Mixolydian to Ionian over a simple ii V I. Ridiculous...but four bars of Dmaj7#11? Lydian makes a whole lotta sense. A G7#5b9? Try an Ab melodic minor. People inevitably say, "well, the beboppers didn't think like that" and of course they din't...find me a bebop tune with 8 bars of a susb9 chord in the middle.

It's all about finding the most direct route--something you can internalize quickly if there's not a lot of time to practice a tune.

Monk, sounds to me like you're in a rut. Definitely time to do a lot of listening to new stuff and look for the "how the hell did he do that?" moments.
A lot of times, when players talk about using a mode over a certain chord or progression, they're really just talking about that--their navigation system. There's no rule that says those are the only notes you can use...I've done a lot of transcribing off Davis' "Kind of Blue," and for example, on "So What," Davis is the only player who really sticks to JUST the notes from the mode.

Trane took things out further rather quickly...his stuff soon was less based on a mode but more on a "key center." The options really open up then.

I wouldn't say I'm in a rut. I'm just looking for more. I'm not stagnant, I just want to take bigger steps. I want to look at things from a different angle. Improve at a faster rate. Look at how other people are doing things, and incorporate that into my playing. I can play the same song a thousand times and come up with stuff I never heard or thought of before. I just don't know much theory really. And I'm looking for theory I can learn. Theory that will give me a different perspective maybe.

So, not really stuck, but looking for more.

[mr. beaumont]

See, that's where I think you might like some of the stuff Jon was suggesting then, because it doesn't change that rapidly.

I'm honestly having a tough time coming up with anything better for practicing using a few different modes over...

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

I hear people doing stuff that I don't do. I am just not sure if it is that they are thinking theory wise as I do, but are having fresh ideas, or whether they are applying some ways of looking at it, that I am not.

Well, all the really great musicians I've had the opportunity to talk shop with have said more-or-less the same thing.

They're not thinking in terms of theory. They're thinking in terms of sounds. There are sounds in their head and they want to get them out.

So what I would encourage you to do is to take some of those songs that are things that you don't do and figure them out by ear. Don't worry about names (and that's all theory is, really - names for common practices). Listen, play, and study the songs until you know them. And you'll likely find that you can then, without trying, use the same techniques those musicians use.

[Monk of Funk]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

See, that's where I think you might like some of the stuff Jon was suggesting then, because it doesn't change that rapidly.

I'm honestly having a tough time coming up with anything better for practicing using a few different modes over...

I already do that. I generally just don't pay attention to what mode i'm in. I just know what sounds I want to hear, and I know "the pattern". So, you can play me any chord progression in any single mode, and I will quickly and easily be able to play it, and play within that mode. I might not be able to tell you what it is called though. It's when it comes to changing modes that things get weird for me.