Alternative to Neumann KM84

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

So you personally demoed the Warm Audio WA-84 mikes?

yep, only a single, not a pair, and Midwinter bought the WA14 and ask him it sounds anything like an original 414 (which he now owns). That is one company that to me is using other people's model numbers for mics as over the top sales techniques. And their U47 knockoff doesn't even use the same style circuit as a U47. I wish they would just sell their mics saying they are a nod to those designs without saying they are replacements for those original designs, and that would make it a little more real world.

My point is you really have to hear the microphones as there is so much lore on the internet that is perpetuated. And as I said, that lore almost stopped me from buying my KM184s. But to suggest any mic sound like a KM84 without using that very hard to make nickel diaphragm which is probably one of the reasons why it sounds so good is just not right. I don't think my KM184s sound like a KM84, I just don't think the KM184s sound harsh with the right preamp.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

Or you can just rent a mic you consider buying and try them out in your own space.

I've asked about this previously but didn't get satisfactory answers--where do you go to rent mics like that?

An online search found a few places that did it by mail (mostly from LA or New York) but the selection was limited (i.e. they might not have KM84/184 or other specific mics available), and it could get expensive--several hundred dollars for a couple days of rental and shipping. That might be cost effective if the mics cost several thousands, but it makes a pretty big dent in the budget if you were going to spend under, say $1000 or even $1500. Local studio time might also be similarly expensive or not have the particular mics you are interested in.

So what's a poor musician to do?

[rockabilly69]

Another thing is, maybe what the OP should try is a large diaphragm mic on his HD28 as they tend to have a smoother top end, and add a little warmth to the guitar in general, compared to the small diaphragm mics. When I go over to my studio today I will make a comparison recording of a U87ai against the KM184 using the same preamp so he can hear that too! Or I could use a TLM103 which is in the same price range as a KM184. Listen to the difference @ 3:43 for the small diaphragm sound... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVb0ULL6EKE

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

I've asked about this previously but didn't get satisfactory answers--where do you go to rent mics like that?

An online search found a few places that did it by mail (mostly from LA or New York) but the selection was limited (i.e. they might not have KM84/184 or other specific mics available), and it could get expensive--several hundred dollars for a couple days of rental and shipping. That might be cost effective if the mics cost several thousands, but it makes a pretty big dent in the budget if you were going to spend under, say $1000 or even $1500. Local studio time might also be similarly expensive or not have the particular mics you are interested in.

So what's a poor musician to do?

Well I can see that's not really ideal for you, have you checked locally? When I rented my U87, I rented it from a guy that had a small studio in Salt Lake City (30 miles from me), and he knew of me from my gigging close by. If you can't find a rental house, call all the studios you can find that are, close, have a mic like you want to try out, and are reasonable priced by the hour. If you're prepared, it won't take you more than an hour of your time. A lot of studios use Neumann mics just for their name value! And if you buy one of the cheaper mics (that you can return) you can shoot it out right against some of the top dollar mics.

[alohachris]

Aloha Rodrigo & Friends,

I've been fortunate & curious enough to have auditioned or owned all of the classic mic's mentioned here today (KM-54's anyone?). I love the KM-84's which were SO common throughout the 80's for studio or live. I dislike the 184, because it has zero in common with the characteristics or unique diaphragm design of its predecessor.

The KM-84 provided it's own sound like few other mic's (why it's still one of the 10 most sought-after mic's ever!) Detailed, balanced, good off-axis, natural - not very colored, required little EQ, didn't have to fight it, & for lack of a better term, sounded "warm & relaxed" on all acoustic instruments. Every note & space seems relaxed & open, not compressed or clinical in any way.

The world's first phantom-powered SDC, the cardioid KM-84 provided a flat-frequency response to capture an awesome sonic representation of the instruments I recorded on it & those of so many Baby Boomer pro's. David Grisman was a major fan of the mic, Mike Marshall was too (he turned me on to the KM-84 when visiting here in 1980).

Of course, we tend to build myths around game-changing things from every sector - especially audio gear - & those "Magic Mic's" (love that word, huh Doug?). The KM-84 is no different, just as the live acoustic Pendulum SPS-1 preamp is now fast becoming. But...we can't get it anymore new - it was discontinued in 1992 - almost 30 years ago!

What to do, Rodrigo? Pay $3-4K for beat up oldies online? Look for unbelievably rare "mint" KM-84's at VintageKing? Or preferrably, audition & select NEW quality, high-end mic's that will work for your ears & recording needs today. There are so many that never seem to make it into AGF conversations. Go find your own gem, Rodrigo (like the Peluso P-28 tube SDC gem that sdelsolray helped me find).

Used vintage SDC's like the KM-84 tend to have lots of visible mileage on their bodies, & loose bodies or broken cables inside - because they were dropped or tipped over so many times. I did audition a few used ones but passed everytime for those reasons. As a studio condenser, the KM-84 was not built to be a "robust" live microphone. Although they can be refurbished if parts are available, mic's don't get better with age like wooden instruments.

For decades, I was a high-end mic addict, chasing the magic of the old great mic's: Vintage 47/48's this, vintage that, vintage this, etc.. It went on & on, endlessly. All I wanted to do was to finally just hear the best available gear in my own space - to know what the supposed "best" or "better" classic gear sounded like on my self-made instruments, voice & original acoustic music recordings. Just for the pleasure of it. I did that. But I'm glad I'm off that long, expensive, obsessive path today.

Rodrigo, I suggest you go put an ear on mic's you want to hear. Audition it. I would never make a gear buying decision online or based on forum opinions. I spent probably $20K over the years to rent, ship & audition great gear getting it to/from here in the Islands. I'd also take trips to LA every year just to audition mic's & gear. It was worth it to me to own a KM-84 for a few years too, although my primary recording SDC at that time was a pair of AKG EB352 C cardioid's used on Windham Hill records, also long discontinued.

Online opinions can only get you so far, then you gotta put an ear on da gear. We all hear differently. Day to day.

No mic today is exactly like the KM-84 was in the 1980's. We also record so differently today with DAW's instead of analog tape & noise reduction. But other great mic's today are very close in sound: Schoeps & Microtech-Gefell come to mind. If you wanted to spend KM-84 money, I'd audition the CMC64 or M300's & M295's together. I love those & became a huge fan of Schoeps' Collette Series with its modular approach to capsules. Check them out.

Also, I agree with Rockabilly69, you should also audition a few LDC's for comparison. The best of them (Bock, AEA, Brauner, Telefunken, AKG, Gefell, Coles, Royer, Wunder Audio, Mojave, & sometimes even new Neumann's (Ha!), can provide a very full, complete sound on an acoustic guitar recording.

Rodrigo, after reading mic opinions, it's time to put an ear on it. It's the only way to form an educated opinion on gear. We used to "kick the tires", feel the material, touch & flex the tonewoods, & smell the flowers at markets & stores to check out the things we desired. Now, life has changed again with Amazon making us so lazy about "putting an ear on it first." Ha!

Auditioning at home is THE way to go, Rodrigo - before you buy!

A Hui Hou!

alohachris

PS: Aloha Jeff (Chipotle), I provided you with two whole PM's worth of "satisfactory" 'where to look', 'when to ship,' the zipcodes of suppliers, & other "how-to's" regarding auditioning gear at home. Remember? -alohachris-

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by alohachris

Aloha Rodrigo & Friends,

I've been fortunate & curious enough to have auditioned or owned all of the classic mic's mentioned here today. I love the KM-84's which were SO common throughout the 80's for studio or live. I dislike the 184, because it has zero in common with the characteristics of its predecessor.

The KM-84 provided it's own sound like few other mic's (why it's still sought-after). Detailed, balanced, good off-axis, natural - not very colored, required little EQ, didn't have to fight it, & for lack of a better term, sounded "warm & relaxed." Every note & space seems relaxed & open, not compressed or clinical in any way. It provided an awesome sonic representation of the instruments I recorded on it & many of the Baby Boomer pro's. David Grisman was a major fan of the mic, Mike Marshall was too (he turned me on to the KM-84 when visiting here in 1980).

Of course, we tend to build myths around game-changing things from every sector - especially audio gear - & those "Magic Mic's" (love that word, huh Doug?). The KM-84 is no different, just as the SPS-1 preamp is becoming. But...we can't get it anymore new - it was discontinued in 1992 - almost 30 years!

What to do, Rodrigo? Pay $3K for beat up oldies online? Or, preferrably, audition & select NEW mic's that will work for your ears & needs today.

Vintage SDC's like the KM-84 tend to have lots of visible mileage on their bodies, & loose bodies inside - because they were dropped or tipped over so many times. I did audition a few used ones but passed everytime for those reasons. It was not a "robust" microphone. Although they can be refurbished if parts are avaialble, mic's don't get better with age like wooden instruments.

For decades, I was a high-end mic addict, chasing the magic of the old great mic's: Vintage 47/48's this, vintage that, vintage this, etc.. It went on & on, endlessly. All I wanted to do was to finally just hear the best available gear in my own space - to know what the supposed "best" or "better" classic gear sounded like on my self-made instruments & original acoustic music. Just for the pleasure of it. I did that. But I'm glad I'm off that path today.

Rodrigo, I suggest you go put an ear on mic's you want to hear. Audition it. I would never make a gear buying decision online or based on forum opinions. I spent probably $20k over the years to rent or audition great gear getting it to/from here in the Islands. I'd also take trips to LA every year juest to audition mic's & gear. It was worth it to me to own a KM-84 for a few years too.

Online opinions can only get you so far, then you gotta put an ear on da gear. We all hear differently. Day to day.

No mic today is exactly like the KM-84 was in the 1980's. We also record so differently today with DAW's. But other great mic's today are very close in sound: Schoeps & Microtech-Gefell come to mind. If you wanted to spend KM-84 money, I'd audition the CMC64 or M295's together. I love both of those & became a huge Schoeps Collette Series with it modular approach to capsules. Check them out.

Rodrigo, after reading opinions, it's time to put an ear on it. It's the only way to form an educated opinion on gear. We used to "kick the tires", feel the material, touch & flex the tonewoods, & smell the flowers at markets & stores to check out the things we desired. Now, life has changed again with Amazon making us so lazy about "putting an ear on it." Ha!

Auditioning is the way to go - before you buy!

alohachris

PS: Aloha Jeff (Chipotle), I provided you with two whole PM's worth of "where to look's" & "how-to's" regarding auditioning gear at home. Remember? -alohachris-

All of this post makes sense to me, especially the auditioning of mics, there is NO substitute for that. And in Rodrigo's case I think he also needs to look at auditioning some larger diaphragm mics. Also I agree the KM184 does not sound like the KM84, as I said in my post, the diaphragm in the KM84 is very unique, and it, and with it's transformer, it's just a very smooth sounding mic. And the KM184 does have very little in common with the KM84, as much in common as a modern C414 has to the B/ULS variant with it's transformer, but they can sound very good with the right preamp, which I intend to show when I get up to my studio today.

Oh yeah, the thing about buying vintage mics like the KM84, is that they are all over the map, and I for one like to be the one putting the mileage on my mics.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by alohachris

PS: Aloha Jeff (Chipotle), I provided you with two whole PM's worth of "satisfactory" 'where to look', 'when to ship,' the zipcodes of suppliers, & other "how-to's" regarding auditioning gear at home. Remember? -alohachris-

You did, and I looked into my available options--no studios with what I was interested in nearby, and it hardly seemed worth it to me to spend $400 renting mics that cost $800--I might as well just buy them in the first place. Dropping hundreds or thousands to buy a bunch of mics with the plan to return the ones you don't want also requires the spare cash on hand, as well as the ethics of buying to return (I've done it, but it always feels a bit questionable IMO).

If you have the luxury of being flush enough to trial lots of stuff, and/or the mics are very expensive, it makes sense. But if you're on a budget and you're not spending that much (relatively) in the end, it's less useful. I'm not saying you shouldn't--and if you really want the final say, you have to use your own ears. But there is a reason that there are mic shootouts and comparison recordings on line. It seems like a good compromise between a random opinion and actually doing the comparison with gear in hand.

My point with the CM4s was to find those comparison recordings. Maybe you believe them, maybe you hear the difference, maybe not. But it is another datapoint in the search... and it's free.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

Seriously Kev, you should have left it at just that. None of these mics that you mentioned sound even remotely close to a KM84. And IMNSHO the only decent mic you mentioned is the Peluso, but still it doesn't sound like a KM84.

Seriously Rock, did I say any of them "sounded like" an 84 ?

Did you miss the part where I said and I quote
"purported to be based on the vaunted 84"

Did you miss the part where the op said affordable ?

Did you miss the part where he said his budget was more in the range of 1 WA 84 ? i.e. ($400)
IMHO Recommending mics that are 3- 4 + times that is not really all that helpful ?

You could focus on what the OP clearly states his budget is as opposed to mics you personally like. And perhaps refrain from chastising those who do pay attention to the OP. I owned and certainly like the Schoeps CM6-MK4, But did you see me ignore the OP's statements, and recommend it ?

[rick-slo]

A did try out and record a bit on a KM84i "clone" mikes some time back.
It was commissioned by Mercenary Audio (remember those guys?) and
called a KM-69. Warm and smooth sounding.

Here a recording of a Paul Woolson LG double top using those mikes:
http://dcoombsguitar.com/Guitar%20Music/KissKM69.mp3
Rick

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Seriously Rock, did I say any of them "sounded like" an 84 ?

Did you miss the part where I said and I quote
"purported to be based on the vaunted 84"

Did you miss the part where the op said affordable ?

Did you miss the part where he said his budget was more in the range of 1 WA 84 ? i.e. ($400)
IMHO Recommending mics that are 3- 4 + times that is not really all that helpful ?

You could focus on what the OP clearly states his budget is as opposed to mics you personally like. And perhaps refrain from chastising those who do pay attention to the OP. I owned and certainly like the Schoeps CM6-MK4, But did you see me ignore the OP's statements, and recommend it off?

His original budget was for a KM184 that's what I was going on! And if you look at his gear list he already owns a Neuman KMS105 mic and a Martin HD28 a $3000 guitar so that's what I'm going on by affordable. And my original post was to give the KMS105 a try with the right preamp before writing off!

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

A did try out and record a bit on a KM84i "clone" mikes some time back.
It was commissioned by Mercenary Audio (remember those guys?) and
called a KM-69. Warm and smooth sounding.

Here a recording of a Paul Woolson LG double top using those mikes:
http://dcoombsguitar.com/Guitar%20Music/KissKM69.mp3
Rick

I remember and thought about Mercenary Audio KM-69 but are they even still in business ?

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

A did try out and record a bit on a KM84i "clone" mikes some time back.
It was commissioned by Mercenary Audio (remember those guys?) and
called a KM-69. Warm and smooth sounding.

Here a recording of a Paul Woolson LG double top using those mikes:
http://dcoombsguitar.com/Guitar%20Music/KissKM69.mp3
Rick

I remember that mic, wasn't it actually designed by Oliver Archut? I remember wanting to buy one of those, and they were gone in a flash. Fletcher from Mercenary was pushing them on Gearslutz.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

His original budget was for a KM184 that's what I was going on!

No it was not .
You might want to read more carefully

He did not say his budget was a 184 He said he did not want a 184 sound . "(not the younger brother, KM184, that is too harsh for my taste").

His first mention of budget is post #4 "my budget I will probably stay with the WA84... but just a single, not a matched pair."

[Doug Young]

What mics have you tried for recording? is there a reason you really need KM84s (or equivalent)? Something you think is missing with your current mics?

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by KevWind

I remember and thought about Mercenary Audio KM-69 but are they even still in business ?

They have been out of business for several years. It was my favorite place to get gear from. Generous try out period.

Not too many of these mikes were made before they went out of business though occasionally you will see used ones show up:
https://reverb.com/item/10099650-mer...km69-1-neumann

The company that actually made the mikes was going to sale them directly using a different name. That did not last long.