STEEL SHIMS for raising Nut and Saddle?

[BothHands]

Thanks, redir. I'm interested in setting up my guitars with a slightly unusual nut configuration. It'll involve relocating the Lo-E slightly toward the fretboard edge, and the space between strings will be equalized. I think there'll be considerable experimentation, so being able to swap nuts in and out as easily as possible is important to me - whether I do the work or pay a pro to do it. I hope to avoid any damage.

I don't want to buy (pay for) a complete set of nut slot files, but I'm pretty much convinced that trying to get by on less will be a mistake. As for working on a nut in place, I can't imagine doing so without gouging the headstock with the file ends. Perhaps with a little practice I'd figure it out, but by then I'd likely be finished. I have just a few guitars and a couple of basses to do.

[arie]

"I don't want to buy (pay for) a complete set of nut slot files, but I'm pretty much convinced that trying to get by on less will be a mistake."

there's a million shade tree alternatives out there but at the end of the day nut files just work leaving you to worry about more important stuff. i suggest the investment.



As for working on a nut in place, I can't imagine doing so without gouging the headstock with the file ends.

i've done this once or twice but no more -it's not fun. i suggest using a vise to hold the nut off-line. i have on of the stew mac vises which is just a cheap vise with taller and thinner jaws mounted to it so you can maneuver. it works good for me because i roll the string slots down pretty far around the nut radius (toward the tuners) and need the clearance to do so.

[BothHands]

Originally Posted by arie

[...] i have one of the stew mac vises which is just a cheap vise with taller and thinner jaws mounted to it so you can maneuver. it works good for me because i roll the string slots down pretty far around the nut radius (toward the tuners) and need the clearance to do so.

My regular bench vise provides a way to mount accessory jaw faces to the basic jaws. Maybe I can make some tall, thin bolt-ons out of oak... Now, if I could just luck into a good used set of files. Oh, and a boatload of talent, patience and exceptional eyesight...

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by BothHands

As for working on a nut in place, I can't imagine doing so without gouging the headstock with the file ends..

There is no magic to it. I regularly do this and it is my preferred method without gouging the head. Depends upon what you are comfortable with.

Originally Posted by BothHands

Now, if I could just luck into a good used set of files.

I don't know why this keeps coming up. Before dedicated, gauged nut files, people used needle files and saws. An acceptable set of files will run about $10 as will an acceptable saw. They can be used to make perfectly good nut slots and is what generations of guitar makers used up until 15 or so years ago. Go buy a set of needle files and an X-Acto saw and get on with it.

[Frank Ford]

Originally Posted by BothHands

I think there'll be considerable experimentation, so being able to swap nuts in and out as easily as possible is important to me - whether I do the work or pay a pro to do it. I hope to avoid any damage.

I don't want to buy (pay for) a complete set of nut slot files, but I'm pretty much convinced that trying to get by on less will be a mistake. As for working on a nut in place, I can't imagine doing so without gouging the headstock with the file ends. Perhaps with a little practice I'd figure it out, but by then I'd likely be finished. I have just a few guitars and a couple of basses to do.

From post #12:

Originally Posted by Frank Ford

Well, here I go with that same advice.
Don't spend so much time thinking, planning and calculating. Spend more time experimenting and learning by making mistakes. Assembling a large and diverse collection of methods and techniques will lead to confusion. . .

Sorry if I seem heavy-handed, but here we are. . .

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by BothHands

I don't want to buy (pay for) a complete set of nut slot files, but I'm pretty much convinced that trying to get by on less will be a mistake. As for working on a nut in place, I can't imagine doing so without gouging the headstock with the file ends. Perhaps with a little practice I'd figure it out, but by then I'd likely be finished. I have just a few guitars and a couple of basses to do.

If you really intend to do nut work, you will NEED to learn to work without the nut in place for final nut slot depth adjustment. If you are timid in the beginning, just tape some cereal box board to protect the guitar.

[BothHands]

Originally Posted by Frank Ford

From post #12:
Sorry if I seem heavy-handed, but here we are. . .

I don't think you're being at all heavy handed, but doing the same thing again and again with the expectation of a different outcome is, in some circles, considered the definition of insanity...

HA! I mention that in jest, with an eye toward my own tendencies/limitations and full, high regard for you, Frank. And believe it or not, I'm not fearful of doing these things. As I've said before, I just don't feel that I (me) can afford to make obvious, painful and possibly disabling mistakes on the guitars I own. I might be living with the outcome for decades...

So I ask my obtuse questions here, and do as much prep work as I can before I make the mistakes (and then probably make them anyway but at least forewarned is forearmed, right?)

[BothHands]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Before dedicated, gauged nut files, people used needle files and saws. An acceptable set of files will run about $10 as will an acceptable saw. They can be used to make perfectly good nut slots and is what generations of guitar makers used up until 15 or so years ago. Go buy a set of needle files and an X-Acto saw and get on with it.

Used by whom? By experienced, skilled, talented artisans? Well that makes sense.

I already have cheap Chinese needle files and I'm no slouch with tools of many kinds, but as Dirty Harry Callahan put it, "A good man knows his limitations." We're talking thousands of a inch here, done with hand tools, not a milling machine. As I understand it (IF I understand it), the string spacing has to be correct, not just sorta correct. And the nut slot depth (string height above Fret 1) has to be DEAD ON correct to within a few thousandths of an inch. AND...the angle of the slot's floor has to be right, terminating at the front edge of the nut - otherwise intonation suffers and string buzzing may occur. That's a pretty tall order.

Some of you guys have done so much of this that perhaps now you take it all for granted. I think you've forgotten what it is to attempt this level of refined, accurate work for the first time. Ultimately you're right; only DOING IT will resolve certain questions, but that doesn't keep me from wishing for a cheap set of decent nut files. And it doesn't make me embarrassed about asking valid questions in an online forum specifically intended for these types of questions. Sheesh.

I don't see any way to give truly accurate rounded bottoms to the nut slots without the correct files. Yeah, I read about pulling wound strings through each slot to abrade the floor of the slot, but that's likely to turn that slot's floor into a rounded arc because the string is not a solid rod, but is instead a flexible shaft that will attempt to bow itself (and wear an arc) when pulled across a fulcrum-like object under downward pressure. If I make an arc in the bottom of that slot, my string length just got longer, and OOPS, say goodbye to accurate intonation. Right? And the prospect of real accuracy in terms of a few thousandths of an inch using the string method seems pretty far fetched to me...

Enough. I hate typing anyway. I think you get my point...

[redir]

Originally Posted by Ned Milburn

If you really intend to do nut work, you will NEED to learn to work without the nut in place for final nut slot depth adjustment. If you are timid in the beginning, just tape some cereal box board to protect the guitar.

By nut in lace you mean with the nut installed at the end of the fretboard as opposed to clamped in a vice right? If so then I think you meant to say you will NEED to learn to work with the nut in place?

IF so then I agree. I cannot imagine cutting a proper nut clamped in a vice. I get it real close in the vice then install it, string up the guitar and finish it off.

[John Arnold]

I do the initial shaping in a vise, then cut the slots on the guitar, then back in the vise for the final shaping. That way, I can cut the top off the nut, with minimal slot depth remaining. The final shaping could be done on the guitar, but it's easier and safer in a vise.

I don't see any way to give truly accurate rounded bottoms to the nut slots without the correct files.

IMHO, rounded bottoms are highly overrated. I did just fine with needle files and razor saws for many, many years, and I still tend to use razor saws on the plain strings, because they are faster than files.

[Jim.S]

You can get cheap nut file sets on ebay, about $20, who knows if they are any good though.

Jim

[BothHands]

Originally Posted by Ned Milburn

If you really intend to do nut work, you will NEED to learn to work without (did you mean 'with' here?) the nut in place for final nut slot depth adjustment. If you are timid in the beginning, just tape some cereal box board to protect the guitar.

You know what, Ned? I'm not sure anymore that I really do intend to do nut work.

If what I read in these forums is accurate, a slot that's just a few thou too high makes playing difficult, but if you go back and adjust that slot just a few thou too low you've created a frustrating "buzz generator" that will likely force you to replace the whole nut. So the only way I see for an inexperienced person to tackle it with any hope of real accuracy is to invest in the right tools - which isn't in the cards for me at present. Beyond that, I have just a few guitars and basses, so maybe it makes better sense for me to save up and hire the work out.

I appreciate your helpfulness and practical suggestions, Ned. If I do this, I certainly will tape some cereal box to the headstock. In keeping with my apparent reputation among some AGF members, let me ask you: Does it matter whether I use a Cheerios box or a Wheaties box?

[BothHands]

Originally Posted by Jim.S

You can get cheap nut file sets on ebay, about $20, who knows if they are any good though.

Hey, Jim. I PMed with a buyer of those files in the UK. He didn't like them much. The advertising makes no indication of the slot widths they create, and that AGF member had no way of measuring the widths of the slots he's created... So under the circumstances I figured it's better to save the $20 and put it toward a known, reliable set of files at around $100.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by BothHands

Used by whom? By experienced, skilled, talented artisans?

It's time to fish or cut bait.

I've spent 20-plus pages giving one simple approach to accomplishing the task. It is accessible to anyone reasonably handy. You can read about it here: http://charlestauber.com/luthier/Resources.html. Buy an inexpensive set of feeler gauges and a sharp pencil or X-acto knife used with a ruler or dividers. It isn't rocket science. You continue to over-think it.

[BothHands]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

I do the initial shaping in a vise, then cut the slots on the guitar, then back in the vise for the final shaping. That way, I can cut the top off the nut, with minimal slot depth remaining. The final shaping could be done on the guitar, but it's easier and safer in a vise.

IMHO, rounded bottoms are highly overrated. I did just fine with needle files and razor saws for many, many years, and I still tend to use razor saws on the plain strings, because they are faster than files.

That's an interesting point about the rounded bottoms. It directly contradicts what I thought was an accepted standard, but of course, I have complete confidence in what you say - and I'm glad to hear it.

Q1. Do you use two saws having two different widths for the two plain strings, e and b?
For example, one that makes a .012" kerf and another that makes a .016" kerf?

Q2. Are you talking about X-Acto thin-kerf saws, as have been discussed here before? Or some specialty luthiery tool?

Q3. If the slot is slightly wider than the string diameter (as in .005 to .010" too wide) does that negatively affect playability or tone?