Nylon crossover bridge position, 12 fret vs 14 fret

[Tom2]

If you already have your dream guitar, then sure, you can use the wand to modify the body part of your choosing. Of course, you will be required to say why.

As a long time player of lead electric guitar, I actually find nylon to be superior for soloing. At this point, however, I don't know exactly what guitar to recommend, hence this discussion.

Tom 2;

No, I am not exactly there. The RS Parlor and Emerald X10-OSN are close. The Parlor has the tone and projection, the emerald has the fret width and high fret reach. I believe that one more order from Emerald would be me there.

I strongly agree with your notion of the superiority of nylon for solo work. Which is why I am working with Alistair for an electric nylon strung guitar. I've played the Godin, the Chet Atkins, the Parker, and so forth. I think Emerald can beat them all in terms of tone and projection. Alistair's CF electric will also be lighter, more comfortable, and more ergonomic. And it will also be prettier. Aesthetics count.

[Tom2]

I've always wondered what an NP12 would be like with an actual crossover neck, while keeping the body exactly as it is. A 13 fret neck would give one more fret of access, and produce a scale that is right at 640mm. Add in a 48.5mm nut width, and an NP13 could be lucky for them.

Tom2;

It doesn't seem like it would take much for Rainsong to make the suggested changes, but unfortunately RS does not do much custom work. This is where Emerald has an advantage and why I've focused on variations of the X10 build. I am not as precise as you but I figure that if I keep messing around I'll eventually get there.

The electric nylon string guitar is a different animal and I think many of the acoustic parameters are not particularly important; but that could be a sign of my general ignorance regarding electric guitars. Size, neck, fret board, and electronics are my primary electric interests. I'm relying on Alistair to know what I do not.

[Tom2]

Originally Posted by Alistair Hay

I agree it can be beneficial tonally to move the bridge further back on the body but for most of our customers the feeling is that they prefer the extra access of the 14 fret placement. Also it must be noted that on our X20 the 12 fret placement most notably enhances the bass which already is very strong and some may find the bass starts to over power the trebles.

I've been letting this sit in the back of my mind for a few days, and started comparing cf crossovers to classical guitars from the perspective of size and shape.

The NP12 comes closest to a classical, and some people here have commented on its superior tone. Maximum body depth is a little bit larger, and the scale is shorter, causing the bridge location to shift towards the 14 fret position, even though it is a 12 fret guitar.

Next is the X7, with a lower bout and body depth that are in the classical dimensions, but body length is shorter. Even in a 14 fret configuration, the bridge is located where a typical 12 fret classical would be. No one here has commented on the tone of an X7N.

Last is the X20. It's big. Maximum body depth for classicals is 95mm to 100mm. The X20 is 120mm. Lower bout width for classicals maxes out at 370mm. The X20 is 390mm. Only the body length is in the classical range. The volume of air inside an X20 is so much greater than in a classical, about 25% greater, that bass buildup is an unavoidable issue.

With steel strings, balancing lows and highs can be accomplished with bridge location, without causing individual note tone to suffer, because string tension is so high that the soundboard can be driven sufficiently from any bridge location. This just isn't true with nylon. While the balance between lows and highs can be accomplished, nylon tone suffers when the bridge is moved away from the center of the lower bout. Nylon strings don't hold their energy for very long, so that energy needs to be transferred to the soundboard as quickly as possible.

For a crossover to meet the tonal quality of a classical, I think the lower bout needs to be 370mm wide and 100mm deep, with the bridge in the center, and the overall body length needs to be in the range of 470mm to 490mm. Beyond this, the upper bout can be modernized for fret access and ergonomics, but tampering with lower bout design will probably produce inferior tone.

Tom2;

I have been fascinated by your contributions to this forum thread. Your level of precision amazes me. I am sort of a slop-a-long cowboy, feeling his way to what works. You, on the other hand, have ferreted out the parameters of 500 years of R&D with the classical guitar.

But I also think your analysis misses one part of the that 500 year history--trial and error. I think it may be possible, with new materials, with hollow necks, with new build, to create something that may advance the development of the guitar.

I am not disputing your findings. My first introduction to the classical guitar came at a concert by Montoya--it was ravishing. I have held that sound in my mind for 50 years--it is hard to match. None of the CF guitars have yet matched that golden sound. they are close, but not yet there.

As you hypothesize, the RS Parlor nylon is very close. In terms of tone, I think Emerald and Blackbird have also come very close. They have all done so outside of the exact parameters you've established.

As I noted earlier, if I had another X10N made it would conform a bit more to your parameters. In the meantime, I have really enjoyed the exploration of new forms, materials, and builds in the CF guitar revolution.

I would really like for you to order your ideal guitar with Emerald. Alistair is very flexible and he will make what you want. How can you resist?

[Tom2]

Actually, I'm fully embracing the 500 year process by using it's fruit as a starting point. Start at the top and go up from there.

When will I go for it? I'm still researching, learning, and designing. The next step is to work out the details of an elliptical neck profile. My current crossover is good enough for now, so sharing insights as they arise is where I am. I've been vegan for so long, maybe I have worked through the gas issues.

"maybe I have worked through the gas issues;" that's pretty funny stuff.