Build Thread: Kraut OM, Euro Spruce and Brazilian RW

[justonwo]

I was hoping to discover the next big tone wood.

[justonwo]

The problem with a lot of time in between commissioning a build a the start of a build is that you can really drive yourself nuts with all the possibilities. Since I haven't settled on woods for this guitar yet, I don't want to rule out the possibility (yet) of using a set of Brazilian rosewood. Although I really love the East Indian Rosewood set already pictured, and have actually played a guitar built from a sister set, I will get a chance to see and hear these sets of Brazilian in person this weekend and talk to the man in person (one of the benefits of living in the Bay Area).

Ray has been pretty honest about the benefits of Brazilian, as compared to other rosewoods, being pretty subtle and it's always hard to define the line of diminishing returns. These sets come from an old beam from a house constructed over 100 years ago.

I haven't seen many sets of Brazilian rosewood that look like this, but Ray was kind enough to forward photos of a similar set under finish on a Somogyi he helped build (pictured below).

[El Conquistador]

Juston,

I am glad Ray is being honest about the differences between BRZ and other fine and far less expensive B&S tonewoods. The problem with this kind of forum is that you are always left to wonder if there could, just possibly, be a slightly better tone if only you had forked over the $X upcharge. I have not been imune to the siren song of BRZ myself. What is worse, there really is no way to tell how much a difference BRZ makes from one guitar to another since each guitar is basically, well, a whole other guitar.

However, after our wonderful Baranik gathering, I am no longer plauged with doubt. One of the great things about that gathering is that we had all in one place:
1. A group of high end guitar owners eager to hear differences.
2. Guitars made by the exact same builder.
3. Identical models with the only variable being the B&S woods.
4. And the same player playing the exact same tune over and over.

At one point, I played for the assembled guitar snobs two guitars that were as identical as you get except one had BRZ B&S and the other Cocobolo. The top woods were the same, the model was the same, the builder was the same, and the build time frame was within a year of each other. Out of a group of 9, only 1 person said they "thought" they heard a difference. I am convinced that if they were not facing me and I did not tell them which guitar was which, no one would have been able to tell.

So, unless someone is gonna donate a great set of BRZ to me, I will be paying no upcharges for BRZ and not regret it one bit.

Steve

[JoeCharter]

I have a bit of a mixed reaction to BRW.

First of all, I think it's highly plausible that most folks, including me, couldn't tell the difference just by listening to the guitar.

On the other hand, if I'm going to spend a significant amount of money on a custom build, why not add a bit more prestige to the end result?

Most builders charge a very steep premium for BRW. For example, one could easily double up the cost of a Santa Cruz guitar (or triple up the cost of a Martin, and more) by adding a piece of old growth BRW. I personally think that is too much. BRW is rare, but not that rare.

In the case of Kraut guitars, I think Ray's pricing for wood upgrades is very reasonable. He is one of very few builders I would consider ordering a BRW guitar from. In fact, I may order a second one and I'm glad that the OP doesn't share my taste...

At this price, even if it sounds just like the next set of IRW, I'd still be happy with the upgrade.

[bdm0509]

Originally Posted by El Conquistador

Juston,

At one point, I played for the assembled guitar snobs two guitars...

Steve

I'm hoping this was a bit tongue-in-cheek. It's all just a lot of animosity for someone who is also a Baranik owner hanging around on the same forum as the rest of us guitar snobs, know what I mean?

If you're arguing that Brazilian doesn't cause a tonal improvement equivalent (or greater) than its ratio of cost to other woods, I think you can probably do that--and should, if you really want to chase the wind--without assuming that everyone who buys Brazilian is deceived or a "guitar snob."

But if you're arguing that Brazilian as an upgrade on a custom guitar is foolish, that's a much broader argument, and one that might be exactly what it argues.

Anyway, I just think it's better to acknowledge that some of us (and I do say "us" here) make choices based on more than just tone. If I'm buying from a luthier that swears up and down that his best guitar is going to be out of Brazilian, I'd be hard pressed to tell him to use something else.

I'm thinking about the next-to-insanity it would take for me to order my Traugott in East Indian, unless I planned on traveling overseas with it. On the other hand, Mike Greenfield really likes alternative tonewoods, and so I might be a lot less likely to buy Brazilian from him.

Either way, I'm not sure I'm ready to denigrate those who make different decisions, regardless of their motivation. Besides, the things I hear now are infinitely greater than what I could hear 10 years ago. I'd hate to write off how something sounds and then evolve musically and a decade from now, find out I was blasting away at something that I then find quite distinctive.

Just some thoughts and a mild request for a little temperance...

-B

[JoeCharter]

I can't answer for Steve but I personally use "guitar snob" to describe myself and others all the time. I don't find it offensive -- because it's true, we're guitar snobs!

[justonwo]

I believe his use of the term "guitar snob" was tongue in cheek, and I believe he was lumping himself into that category. By the way, Brett, I see that the Kraut was dropped from your signature. Are you selling it?

[bdm0509]

Originally Posted by justonwo

I believe his use of the term "guitar snob" was tongue in cheek, and I believe he was lumping himself into that category.

That's why I asked, and what I hoped.

Originally Posted by justonwo

By the way, Brett, I see that the Kraut was dropped from your signature. Are you selling it?

Ray's had it in his shop and should be sending it back to me today.

-Brett

[riorider]

I know Steve very well, and he was sharing a personal insight and not really talking about anyone else. We (and I was one of the Baranik gathering he referenced) would laughingly describe ourselves as "guitar snobs" just as someone would self-deprecatingly describe themselves as a "wine snob" or any other kind of thing. So - please don't take Steve's comments as anything other than an affectionate pat on the back.

And his observation was spot on... it's difficult to impossible to really do a comparison between wood types as a customer (not as a builder who sees / taps / hears the variances all the time) because of the vast array of variations. When we go together, we had as close a match as we could with the one builder, close to the same time frame (they all change and improve over time I'm convinced), same body shape, etc., etc.

I'd go with the luthier's recommendations every time, given a good conversation about what general tones and venues I like to play. I was lucky to get to attend Tim & Mary's "McJam" this year, and Tim was able to watch & listen to me play my basic styles for a number of tunes and get an idea of my "attack" and breadth. I was able to play several of his guitars with varieties of woods. Between those two sets of observations we came to some decisions on the top wood to pair with a set of tree mahogany.

Cheers all!

Phil

ps here's a pic I took of all the snobs and their gits at the Baranik gathering:

L-R Dorian Michaels, Mark (?), me (riorider), Jennconducts, Colins, Mike B, Al, El Conquistador (Steve), cocobolo kid

[justonwo]

Originally Posted by bdm0509

Ray's had it in his shop and should be sending it back to me today.

-Brett

You broke it already??!!

[bdm0509]

Originally Posted by justonwo

You broke it already??!!

Yup.

Ha Seriously, Ray is touching up some finish and making it perfect, adjusting the setup for light gauge strings, etc.

-B

[Lonerstoner]

That Somogyi is ****ing amazing.

[colins]

Brett,

As one of the guitar snobs pictured above I can only agree with the other posters that El C was definitely kidding (Maybe we could do “guitar snob” T shirts!). It was great meeting him on the day and listening to him play each of the guitars.

I am also from the school that thinks there is a certain sound from Brazilian. Shimmer, high end frequency response, sustain, crystalline sound? I am hopeless at coming up with the right words. I talked about it with Mike B on the day and came away thinking that if I wanted to get close to “that” sound, but without the cost and major hassle of BR (as I live in Australia), I should consider Amazonian Rosewood. Mike has chosen fantastic wood combinations for me on two builds so far, and when I finally get to another build with him I will reopen the conversation.

Cheers,
Col

[bdm0509]

Originally Posted by colins

Brett,

As one of the guitar snobs pictured above I can only agree with the other posters that El C was definitely kidding (Maybe we could do “guitar snob” T shirts!).

Cheers,
Col

Excellent! As I said, I was hoping he was being tongue-in-cheek, and enough of you have replied that I certainly now believe that was the case. Steve, apologies if I was offensive in my reply.

I appreciate a lot of the thoughts here on Brazilian... many of you have talked less about "better" and more about looks, a "different" tonality, luthier's preference, etc. That's certainly the camp in which I fall.

All's well that ends well, right?

-B

[justonwo]

My favorite set so far. Well quartered with great color.