Taylor Expression System replacement

[kscobie8]

Originally Posted by Rick Shepherd

Alrob started this thread wanting to know options for ES replacement. That is what this thread is about.

Threads are about sharing opinions and experiences. I've rarely found a straight line between how a thread starts and how it ends. But let's not hijack this one further.

Stoneheart's post reminded me of a key point that I've come to realize over the years. With electrified guitars, the pickup is still only part of the equation. The amps and PA gear we use play a significant role in our live sound. Certain systems are certainly more universal in how well they pair with amplification options, but it's still good to keep your live setup in mind when finding what works best for your ears.


Bel isi,
-kyle

[steveyam]

Just to be clear - I know how things get 'shifted' on here. I am a big fan of Taylor guitars. I want one, and I will get one soon I'm sure. I love the 'choral' quality of their acoustic sound. The ES system is much better following several revamps - or should that be redesigns! But I (me personally, moi, that's me I'm talking about) am sold on the latest Yamaha SRT and Fishman Aura modelled mic pickup systems. I think it is the way forward for more natural sounding, acoustic guitar amplification and recording. The problem is the word 'modelling'. Guitarists are phobic about it. Ok, most companies try to avoid using it for that very reason; it invokes panic and distrust. It's 'digital' and only analogue is good enough for purity.. Modelling takes a signal - with all it's dynamic content - and cleverly imbues upon it the tonal characteristics of (in SRT's case) that guitar being mic'd in a world class fashion. All I can say is, go to a store and plug in an SRT equipped guitar, and in the words of dear George Michael, listen without prejudice.

Going back to Taylor guitars, I will probably get a non-electric and fit an Aura system.

Oh, and thanks for the support from some of you.

[Eric_M]

Originally Posted by steveyam

The problem is the word 'modelling'. Guitarists are phobic about it. Ok, most companies try to avoid using it for that very reason; it invokes panic and distrust. It's 'digital' and only analogue is good enough for purity.

Yep, I admit I resemble that remark. Also not crazy about the sidemount/barndoor preamps that so many modeling systems still use.

But overall I tend to be pretty easy-going when it comes to factory pickup systems. My Gibson has an LR Baggs Element with soundhole volume control, I just got a Taylor with the latest ES, and I have a Yamaha nylon-string with the ART (SBT, nonmodeling) system. I like them all. And if I found a guitar I loved that was equipped with the Aura or something similar, even with a barndoor, it wouldn't deter me. (I like Martin's more discreet control layout as seen on the Performing Artist series.)

The MiSi system certainly seems worth looking into. It seems pretty uninvasive, so apologies if this question has already been answered, but other than removing the control assembly, does any of the rest of the ES have to be removed? I'm just wondering how reversible this swap would be. I know the OP said he loved the guitar, but depending on what's involved in making the swap, might it be better to get another guitar without the ES and install whatever you want in that, like steveyam would do? And sell the ES-equipped guitar to one of those weirdos who likes it?

[Rick Shepherd]

Originally Posted by kscobie8

Stoneheart's post reminded me of a key point that I've come to realize over the years. With electrified guitars, the pickup is still only part of the equation. The amps and PA gear we use play a significant role in our live sound. Certain systems are certainly more universal in how well they pair with amplification options, but it's still good to keep your live setup in mind when finding what works best for your ears.


Bel isi,
-kyle

Very true! Too often, I have plugged into house systems that make my ES sound very different from my own PA, not to mention the different venue space.

[royd]

Originally Posted by steveyam

But I (me personally, moi, that's me I'm talking about) am sold on the latest Yamaha SRT and Fishman Aura modelled mic pickup systems. I think it is the way forward for more natural sounding, acoustic guitar amplification and recording. The problem is the word 'modelling'. Guitarists are phobic about it. Ok, most companies try to avoid using it for that very reason; it invokes panic and distrust. It's 'digital' and only analogue is good enough for purity.. Modelling takes a signal - with all it's dynamic content - and cleverly imbues upon it the tonal characteristics of (in SRT's case) that guitar being mic'd in a world class fashion. All I can say is, go to a store and plug in an SRT equipped guitar, and in the words of dear George Michael, listen without prejudice.

OK Steve, I'll bite

I'm one of the folk who doesn't like digital modelling... and it isn't the word or the fact that it is digital. I have digital effects that I use with acoustic guitar and I do digital recording. First, the sound. It sounds artificial to me. I haven't heard the Yamaha system but I I have played the Fishman Aura and the Mama Bear and it doesn't sound like the guitar only miked to me. It sounds like the guitar with a UTS that is digitally manipulated with all of the primary characteristics of the UTS still being present. And I don't find the digital manipulations particularly attractive or helpful in a live situation. Second, even if it did happen to sound like a guitar miked (which I don't hear), it wouldn't sound like your guitar only miked, it would sound sort of like an example of whatever model was used for the image miked unless you have sent them samples from your instrument... I guess that is possible but opens up a whole 'nother can of worms.

Disclaimers... I happen to like the ES system (I prefer a dual source system with a magnetic neck pup and an SBT - I have a Sunrise and a McIntyre in my main guitar) but I don't particularly care for Taylor guitars. I've owned two, an early 915 and an '08 or '09 314CE, and they don't particularly float my boat. I bought the second specifically for the ES system to use for outdoor and other gigs or open mics where I didn't want to use my Lowden O25C or cart my rack. I owned each of the Taylors about a year and never bonded with the sound of either. Now that Taylor will install the ES system in non-Taylors, I have toyed with the idea of getting the ES system in my old, beat-up Lowden S10P. It has some generation of a Fishman UTS in it and the pickup sounds OK. I haven't had any interest in getting an Aura for it.

Bottom line, for me, the modelling isn't impressive. Will it get there? Maybe. In the meantime, I'm very happy with a dual source Sunrise and McIntyre through a good blender. And if I liked Taylors, I'd be very happy with an ES. But that is why there are multiple options available.

[kscobie8]

Originally Posted by steveyam

...
Going back to Taylor guitars, I will probably get a non-electric and fit an Aura system.

Oh, and thanks for the support from some of you.

Steve, I hope you'll post your thoughts on this Aura-equipped Taylor, if you do indeed decide to go this route.


Bel isi,
-kyle

[SpruceTop]

The Fishman Aura system does a really good job of amplifying an acoustic guitar while maintaining most of the natural acoustic properties of the guitar. It also takes the "quack" out of the amplified signal. How do I know this? I've had several guitars equipped with an onboard Aura system and I've routed the output of other UST-equipped guitars through an Aura pedal. The Aura is a good live-performance system that enables a player to play in a wide-variety of venues.

Regards,

SpruceTop aka RainDance when carbonated

[Hambone]

Originally Posted by royd

well, of course they didn't make a product to lose money... but this argument is silly as well. They made a system with an SBT and a magnetic pup. Lots of people love that kind of system (myself included). One of their biggest early endorsees - Chris Proctor - used their guitars without the factory intsalled Fishman systems. Instead, he put a Sunrise and an SBT through an external blender and talked a lot about how that system worked and why he used it. I'm sure those discussions were part of the genesis of the system. Add that nobody markets a similar system.

So they did an SBT with similar technology to the Schertler Dyn-G, a very highly regarded SBT, and put the magnetic pup underneath the fingerboard, addressing one of the biggest complaints about mags, that they change the look of the guitar, and built a blending pre-amp that can go either into a high imp plug or and xlr. OK, so you don't like the sound of a mag/sbt system and that is what they committed too. That's fine. You can order their guitars without the system and install whatever you like. Still sounds like a great approach well executed to me and many others. As for defective ones, I don't doubt there have been some, maybe even many. They have sold a bajillion of them, how could there not be? Still, lots of people I know have them and I've not known anyone who has had a problem.

As to the fingerjoints etc. Taylor is nothing but savvy about manufacturing and how that impacts the bottom line. They are factory guitars and they turn out scores of them. A small change in materials costs adds up significantly, but they still have a commitment to putting out the product they envision at a price point. They built Taylors and every one I've played sounded and played like a Taylor. They tried a different line - the R Taylors - that is less factory built and it isn't working and has been discontinued, at least for the time being.

You don't have to be a fan of Taylors. They are what they are. They aren't my favorites and I would never own one as my main guitar. There are tons of other great guitars out there...

You are making my point. Taylor moves to inferior technology to improve the bottom line, not to improve the instrument or pass cost reductions onto consumers. My Martins come with a lifetime warranty for neck resets... I'll give Bob credit for the NT neck, it will cut down on his warranty costs, but he didn't pass that saving on to the public. They hide behind green to improve the bottom line.

I have not tried the "new and improved" ES, but the original sucks.....unless you buy their preamp. and even then it is no better than what it replaced...at way more money.

So they dumped the Fishman Prefix, which was state of the art for factory instruments at the time and took a huge jump backwards tonally.

[kscobie8]

Originally Posted by Hambone

You are making my point. Taylor moves to inferior technology to improve the bottom line, not to improve the instrument or pass cost reductions onto consumers. My Martins come with a lifetime warranty for neck resets... I'll give Bob credit for the NT neck, it will cut down on his warranty costs, but he didn't pass that saving on to the public. They hide behind green to improve the bottom line.

...

How do you know he didn't pass the savings on to the public?


Bel isi,
-kyle

[Side Man]

Originally Posted by kscobie8

How do you know he didn't pass the savings on to the public?


Bel isi,
-kyle

When was the last time Taylor lowered their prices? Seriously - have they ever??? It's a BUSINESS, folks - not a non-profit guild run by old hippies. But you gotta give 'em credit for figuring how to maximize their bottom line.

I for one never drank the kool-aid when it came to the ES - any version - but that's just my own opinion. It's obviously more than adequate for 98% of the plugged-in acoustic world.

And as for "passing the savings on to the public", I'm still wiping up the coffee I spilled when I went online today.

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by Hambone

...Taylor moves to inferior technology to improve the bottom line, not to improve the instrument or pass cost reductions onto consumers. ...

You are making assumptions for which you provide no substance.

How did you determine that the costs of hiring a renown electronics engineer (as opposed to hiring an engineer just out of school), designing a system from scratch (as opposed to taking advantage of an existing circuit design) and manufacturing it with components that had to be custom made resulted in a cost savings over an off-the-shelf system benefitting from an economy of scale not limited to one brand of guitars?

...I'll give Bob credit for the NT neck, it will cut down on his warranty costs, but he didn't pass that saving on to the public. They hide behind green to improve the bottom line. ...

What was the cost savings and what evidence do you have that it was not a factor in preventing the necessity of a list price increase?

... So they dumped the Fishman Prefix, which was state of the art for factory instruments at the time and took a huge jump backwards tonally. ...

The Fishman Prefix was a successful, popular design that had been around too long to still be state of the art. Tonal assessments are subjective and while some found the Expression System sound unappealing many of us found it to be an improvement over piezoelectric system shortcomings.

Taylor developed the ES as a solution to the artificial, brittle sound of piezoelectric pickups. Had the primary object been cost savings, they'd have replaced the Fishman system with a generic preamp design and pickups using piezoelectric material from the same suppliers that Fishman, L.R. Baggs and others use.

I may be confusing you with someone else but it seems to me you''ve posted your these groundless assumptions before.

[kscobie8]

Originally Posted by Side Man

When was the last time Taylor lowered their prices? Seriously - have they ever??? It's a BUSINESS, folks - not a non-profit guild run by old hippies. But you gotta give 'em credit for figuring how to maximize their bottom line.

I for one never drank the kool-aid when it came to the ES - any version - but that's just my own opinion. It's obviously more than adequate for 98% of the plugged-in acoustic world.

And as for "passing the savings on to the public", I'm still wiping up the coffee I spilled when I went online today.

I don't like Kool-Aid. Lowering prices is not the only way to pass savings on to the customer. Of course, as a business, there's not really anything wrong with NOT passing savings on to the customer.


Bel isi,
-kyle

[dangrunloh]

Originally Posted by Rick Shepherd

Very true! Too often, I have plugged into house systems that make my ES sound very different from my own PA, not to mention the different venue space.

Where do you guys run the volume knob? I'm new to Taylor and the ES but dislike the sound of my 414ce amplified through the ES if the volume knob is anywhere near unity. It sounds like a "hot pickup" and metallic on my PA (using standard 1/4 guitar cable). However with it way back at about 25% and the amp volume turned up to compensate it sounds much more natural and life-like to me. I keep guitar volume down, use the other knobs strictly for EQ and then control the volume and tone at the amp.

[kscobie8]

Originally Posted by dangrunloh

Where do you guys run the volume knob? I'm new to Taylor and the ES but dislike the sound of my 414ce amplified through the ES if the volume knob is anywhere near unity. It sounds like a "hot pickup" and metallic on my PA (using standard 1/4 guitar cable). However with it way back at about 25% and the amp volume turned up to compensate it sounds much more natural and life-like to me. I keep guitar volume down, use the other knobs strictly for EQ and then control the volume and tone at the amp.

I usually run mine at 50% or 75% of the way up, depending on my system. Through my Roland AC-60 it's usually around 50%, but it's also a dedicated acoustic input. On the PA at church I'm usually closer to 75%, and using a wireless beltpack. There are a lot of variables to consider. The system is supposed to stay really clean throughout the entire range of the controls. So if anything above unity is getting pretty hot I would guess either your PA controls needs tweak, or there's something wrong somewhere along your signal.


Bel isi,
-kyle

[leeasam]

Originally Posted by dangrunloh

Where do you guys run the volume knob? I'm new to Taylor and the ES but dislike the sound of my 414ce amplified through the ES if the volume knob is anywhere near unity. It sounds like a "hot pickup" and metallic on my PA (using standard 1/4 guitar cable). However with it way back at about 25% and the amp volume turned up to compensate it sounds much more natural and life-like to me. I keep guitar volume down, use the other knobs strictly for EQ and then control the volume and tone at the amp.

the volume knob on the ES is not like other systems where cranked sounds best. I run mine at 50% or detent pretty much 100% of the time( with a pick) and will just move it up to maybe 60 to 70% when I finger pick( I use flesh not picks or nails) So when I set the guitar like that you then set the gain atthe board according. I have always had plenty of signal strength. The EQ also is not passive but active. Detent is no boost or cut.

Also if you are running to a PA then get a balanced cable-- TRS 1/4 male and XLR on the other end. The ES is a balanced low impedence system not a high imp non balanced like others.