#31
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The thing is....there are normal people who play guitar and then there's the AGF. We are special.
Seriously, there are a ton of repetitive posts here about impedance matching, UST's vs SBT's vs internal mics vs external mics vs everything. The info is here and free. But a lot of casual players, weekend warriors and open mic'ers are not interested in learning anymore - they know enough to plug in, strum some chords, sing some words and get attention. There's no spotlight or attention here. There are ~750 people on the AGF right now as I write this (119 members and 623 guests). Most users ever online was 9,571 on 07-01-2021 at 01:57 PM. So maybe we have 10,000 people using this forum from the US, UK, Australia, Canada, other countries in Europe, Asia, central and South America. How's that stack up to the total number of guitar players in each of these regions? Are we 10% of all guitar players? 1%? I'd guess even less than that. So I don't think the OP is wrong in their observation, I think they're just preaching to the choir. |
#32
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And Quack is itself a sound . . . Heard on its own, we might think that '70s and '80s piezo sound is trash, but then you hear it in the songs we loved back then. . .
A few years ago Hillsong came out with a live album where, with their resources, included a couple songs with that distinct tone, echoing some of the early Hills Community Church cassette tapes. They wouldn't have that sound if they didn't want it. |
#33
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It's funny though, I play with two musicians who are amazing guitarists. Give them a guitar, any guitar and they make it work. The one plays a G series Takamine so not even the palathetic pickup and the other uses a Martin with the Aura installed. Now I know the Aura can sound great, but I don't even think he totally understands what it's for. When they play, I forget the tones they are getting and just focus on their skill. Their tones are not bad by any means, but would probably be shunned around here. |
#34
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Gear: PRS Hollowbody II Piezo, Martin HPL 000, PRS Angelus A60E, Martin 000-15M |
#35
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I would suggest you "don't understand", because you are confusing your totally subjective perspective, and personal taste, with some kind of imagined universal acceptable tone goal --and are forgetting that the universe is in fact "relative" Me,,,, I don't understand why anyone would choose vanilla when dark chocolate is available
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Enjoy the Journey.... Kev... KevWind at Soundcloud KevWind at YouYube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD System : Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1 Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Sonoma 14.4 Last edited by KevWind; 01-11-2022 at 10:01 AM. |
#36
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Gear: PRS Hollowbody II Piezo, Martin HPL 000, PRS Angelus A60E, Martin 000-15M |
#37
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The “quack” is worse when the piezo transducer is overdriven. This is why some of us like pickups with individual piezo elements for each string so much. You don’t get the quack when you really dig in. My favorite acoustic pickup systems right now have individual piezo elements for each string, plus a microphone blend. I prefer this to Tonedexter type mic modeling.
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#38
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A few months ago, my wife and I went to an America concert in Reno. We're long time America fans and couldn't believe our luck in getting tickets. In anticipation of the show, we listened to our America records over and over again.
When the show finally started, the first thing I notice was the quack of the acoustic guitar. It wans't bad, but it was there. After about 2 songs, I simply didn't hear it any more. My emotional response to the group's wonderful music and the memories the songs dredged up were more than enough to overcome whatever quack was still remaining. In a similar way, I've noticed that sometimes I don't like the sound of one of my guitars if I haven't been playing it for a long time. My ears have become used to the sound of, say, my Martins so when I first pull out my Gibson J15, it sounds harsh. However, after playing my Gibson for a few hours this perceived "harshness" has disappeared. Of course, when I then start to play a Martin, it sounds so different that I really don't like its tone. Then, after a couple hours, whatever sound or tone I didn't like has disappeared. I'm not saying the quack has disappeared, I'm only saying that I just don't notice it any longer. Human hearing is such a strange and complex thing. What sounds glorious to one person is horrendous to another. I must also confess that prior to joining AGF, I never knew what "quack" was and never noticed it. Ever. Not sure this has contributed anything but I thought I'd share. Best, PJ
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A Gibson A couple Martins |
#39
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I've waited a long bit to answer this because I have something of a contrary opinion, and here it is: Life s a compromise. We can't always get everything we want at once. The piezo pickup is a compromise. It is the most reliable, predictable pickup there is. It is the best at rejecting inducted noise and feedback. As a result, for traveling musicians who play in an ensemble, it allows the fastest, most reliable, most trouble-free setup of all the pickups.
It might sound like a conundrum, but the big tours in big venues come with their own big challenges such as terrible acoustics in sports arenas alternating with huge boomy theaters. For those circumstances you need reliable sound as much as you need good sound, and that's why traveling artists sometimes use piezos and work around their quack. Bob
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"It is said, 'Go not to the elves for counsel for they will say both no and yes.' " Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion, The Fellowship of the Ring THE MUSICIAN'S ROOM (my website) |
#40
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I used to do live sound for a living (before my ears gave out). Mostly I was at the sound board, but I also did load ins and load outs as a regular stage hand on larger shows for extra money. I learned from that that not everything you see in a big show is as it seems!
Often that “rack of guitar amps” that you see in the rock and Christian rock shows is really just a stage prop. A single monolith that is bolted together to be easily moved with a forklift. It would look like a rack of Mesa Boogie (or whatever the sponsorship deal was) amps from the front, but from the back you could see that it was just a mostly empty large frame with a single speaker in one corner. The brand on that one speaker would be something like EV. Utilitarian and easy to replace if it got damaged. I agree with Bob that shows like this are not about producing the best audio. Most of us play in smaller venues where feedback, quick loading, and using particular sponsored equipment that we may not actually like are not concerns. Many of us actually get far better acoustic guitar sound than what is practical in a large venue. |
#41
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I have the opposite reaction over time. I don’t necessarily notice crappy piezo sound right away. But as the show goes on, it starts to bug me, and by the time it’s over, I can barely stand it! Just sayin’… |
#42
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I couldn’t “unhear” the quack the other day, myself! I know there have been lots of very rational answers for why it’s accepted and all, but I guess I’ll just always be obsessive about my own plugged-in sound and roll with it.
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Education is important! Guitar is importanter!! 2019 Bourgeois “Banjo Killer” Aged Tone Vintage Deluxe D 2018 Martin D41 Ambertone (2018 Reimagined) 2016 Taylor GS Mini Koa ES2 |
#43
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With piezo, the louder you dig in, the more it quacks. As I said a few posts back, individual elements on each string really minimize this. So does a mic blend. A Matrix pickup isn’t too bad even though it’s one element.
One thing that sounds really great and is easy is using a mic on the guitar along with the pickup and blending the two. A Shure SM57 works fine. It actually sounds wonderful. A built in mic blend doesn’t sound any better. It’s just easier. |
#44
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I can't say I have ever been to a live show where a UST pickup/quack had any impact on my enjoyment. If anything, I often think, "why can't I get my UST to sound that good!"
What really ruins my night though is an acoustic guitar player who uses chorus. Might be the worst tone I have ever heard. I love chorus, but please don't use it on every song! |
#45
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+1... exactly right! This is why I like Takamine’s Palathetic pickup and their preamps. I dig in and sometimes I’m rocking a Bad Company or Zep tune and the Tak doesn’t quack, sounds really good. If I’m not using the Tak system I much prefer a mag to dig in and for finger style as well. I’ve had good stage and studio success with the Baggs M1a, M80 and currently the DeArmond Tone Boss which has become my fav!
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NOLE TUNES & Coastal Acoustic Music one love jam! Martin D18 & 3 lil' birdz; Takamine KC70, P3NC x 2 |