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  #61  
Old 02-28-2019, 07:24 PM
ericcsong ericcsong is offline
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I'd like to add a little insight. As I wrote in another thread about Karan, after spending some time visiting Jason Kostal at his shop, Karan was heavily inspired by both Jason's building techniques and philosophies.

I often think how many luthiers are inspired from a week long course with Somogyi "on the subject of The Principles and Practice of Voicing the Guitar." After a week with Somogyi, many say their post Somogyi class guitars are much better than before. Karan was able to spend 4 weeks with Jason and is so excited to bring new ideas to his guitars.

full build thread here: https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=523232

I can't speak for Nick, but I don't think he was trying to say Karan was from the Somogyi School. Speaking to both Jason Kostal and Karan, I don't think either of them think this as well. The beauty of luthierie is that there are so many wonderful builders that can influence others and many aren't far from a similar family tree
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  #62  
Old 02-28-2019, 10:04 PM
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So, looking for the best luthier in UK lands one in India...with a trip to pick it up!
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  #63  
Old 02-28-2019, 11:29 PM
pandaroo pandaroo is offline
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Since you are talking to Karan, I gather that you are considering taking this outside of the UK, and at your budget of GBP6K, i think there's going to be a plethora of choices you can tap into.
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  #64  
Old 03-01-2019, 12:03 AM
gitarro gitarro is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pandaroo View Post
Since you are talking to Karan, I gather that you are considering taking this outside of the UK, and at your budget of GBP6K, i think there's going to be a plethora of choices you can tap into.

That may not be as much as it may initially look because I believe that he is factoring in the very high vat and customs that importing into the uk entails. So buying a guitar from outside the UK will cost substantially more and so the 6k gbp will be substantially less and that cuts down severely on the number of usa or continental Europe based luthiers who will qualify within his budget. That may be why he is talking to an Indian luthier as his base price probably fits even with the impact of duties.

That is risky though because he will not have the prior opportunity of trying out one of the guitars that Karan makes and so there's no way of knowing for sure if that is the tone he is looking for.
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  #65  
Old 03-01-2019, 12:26 AM
pandaroo pandaroo is offline
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Originally Posted by gitarro View Post
That may not be as much as it may initially look because I believe that he is factoring in the very high vat and customs that importing into the uk entails. So buying a guitar from outside the UK will cost substantially more and so the 6k gbp will be substantially less and that cuts down severely on the number of usa or continental Europe based luthiers who will qualify within his budget. That may be why he is talking to an Indian luthier as his base price probably fits even with the impact of duties.

That is risky though because he will not have the prior opportunity of trying out one of the guitars that Karan makes and so there's no way of knowing for sure if that is the tone he is looking for.
Hi Barry,

You are absolutely right.

Karan's starting base is USD6K. So if the OP is comfortable with that price point then I think there are still a plethora of choices around. I can already name a few without doing a search such as McKnight, Datlen & Bowerman who starts at USD$6k and below.
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  #66  
Old 03-01-2019, 03:14 AM
gitarro gitarro is offline
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The names you have cited are in fact excellent choices in particular given what the OP was looking for - matsuda plus more traditional 000-12. Of those three names, i believe that Mcknight and Bowerman are proficient in building both traditional and more contemporary voiced instruments and have been building for years.

The same issues would apply about him not getting a chance to try those guitars out before purchasing them though since he is in the UK. Still safer in my view for him to try a UK based luthier and visit him and try out and play one or two or more of his guitars for himself.


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Originally Posted by pandaroo View Post
Hi Barry,

You are absolutely right.

Karan's starting base is USD6K. So if the OP is comfortable with that price point then I think there are still a plethora of choices around. I can already name a few without doing a search such as McKnight, Datlen & Bowerman who starts at USD$6k and below.
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  #67  
Old 03-01-2019, 09:41 AM
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Erithon Erithon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericcsong View Post
I'd like to add a little insight. As I wrote in another thread about Karan, after spending some time visiting Jason Kostal at his shop, Karan was heavily inspired by both Jason's building techniques and philosophies.

I often think how many luthiers are inspired from a week long course with Somogyi "on the subject of The Principles and Practice of Voicing the Guitar." After a week with Somogyi, many say their post Somogyi class guitars are much better than before. Karan was able to spend 4 weeks with Jason and is so excited to bring new ideas to his guitars.

I can't speak for Nick, but I don't think he was trying to say Karan was from the Somogyi School. Speaking to both Jason Kostal and Karan, I don't think either of them think this as well. The beauty of luthierie is that there are so many wonderful builders that can influence others and many aren't far from a similar family tree
Fair enough. I may have overstated the case by conflating "school" and "family of influence." But I do think my larger point about the difference between an apprenticeship and mentorship stands, and, importantly for Nick, so does the consequence of that difference as it concerns the sound of a Matsuda guitar and a Bigfoot guitar.

The Somogyi voicing class is an excellent example, Eric, and I'm pleased you invoked it. At this point hundreds of luthiers have enrolled that week-long course, including many here on the forum like Tim McKnight and Mark Hatcher. Though they may be "inspired" by Ervin Somogyi, they are hardly "ex-apprentices." We cannot expect their sound, philosophy, and build techniques to be as influenced by Somogyi as someone like Michi Matsuda, Ray Kraut, or Tom Sands.
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  #68  
Old 03-01-2019, 10:12 AM
nobo nobo is offline
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Some great options above - including Taran, Sands, Turnstone (Rosie H) and Bown.

I'd add Tony Thompson (if he's still building - who went on the Somogyi voicing course - Glastonbury guitars - not to be confused with https://tonythompsonguitars.wordpress.com/ who is someone else) and his protege, Nathan Ball - http://www.nathanballguitars.com/. Tempted myself by one!

Not sure if he makes many OOOs, but Adrian Lucas builds a fine sounding guitar too.

[Edit - just caught up on the rest of the thread. I'd echo comments that it seems to me like you're looking for two different, opposing things in one instrument, so two may be the better way forward. Perhaps something like a Bown at one (the traditional) end of the spectrum, and something like a Sands at the other extreme. In terms of value for money, you could do a lot worse than a Nathan Ball (more towards the Somogyi-esque end of the specturm).] The Lucus and Turnstone guitars fall on a different access - more subtle and distinctly "English" sounding, if that means anything!
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  #69  
Old 03-01-2019, 03:11 PM
NickRundall NickRundall is offline
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I take your points Erithon and gitarro, Karan may not have apprenticed with Jason in the strict sense or the term and therefore can't claim the same level of influence as Michi et al. I was merely alluding to an experience which does seem to have had a massive impact on his building. Easy mistake to make as most of the articles I've read about him so far have stated him as having apprenticed with JK.
The dream of combining the qualities of the Matsuda and 00012 I expect is probably just a dream - especially in my budget! This was why I started out just looking for the 000 as I know there will be plenty of possibilities, and I love that style of guitar - it's only since looking into the work of all the amazing suggestions on this thread that I've had a sense that I may be able to go beyond what I originally hoped for. I'd love to make it simple and get two guitars, but if I could afford that, I'd be keeping the Matsuda!
A Bigfoot may seem like a strange direction given that I was asking about 000's in the UK, but actually flights are pretty cheap to Delhi and I've got family friends I can stay with which makes it quite an easy and cheap pick up compared with collecting from the US. Plus Karan seems very flexible about modifying his standard OM to 12 fret and voicing it for my needs. When you add the unusual woods he has access to it starts looking like an interesting wildcard prospect to me. Plus he can deliver nearly a year sooner than the UK guys I'm interested in. Sure, it won't be a Matsuda or a 000 but he does know what tone I'm after, so maybe it's worth a shot?
Anyway, I'm in not going to rush into anything. This will be my first custom build and this research process is really exciting and fascinating. I'm definitely discovering how easily GAS can strike when discovering new luthiers! I think my next move is to go down to TNAG and appreciated the differences between the Matsuda and the Kostal, Sands etc... I'd like to get a better appreciation of where the guitar I'm used to fits in to the grand scheme of things.
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  #70  
Old 03-03-2019, 06:52 PM
ericcsong ericcsong is offline
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Nick, I'm excited to see whichever direction you go!

The good news is that Grammy Award winning Amrid Sond has his Spalted Tamarind Bigfoot guitar coming to the UK soon so this could be a great time to try it out in person!
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  #71  
Old 03-03-2019, 07:46 PM
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I have no idea if any of John Kinnaird's instruments, let alone a 000 have reached the U.K., but my first of his was a 000-12 fret. It knocked me out. His 000s are very VERY NICE.

Enjoy the search and the process!

Happy picking

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  #72  
Old 03-06-2019, 12:05 PM
NickRundall NickRundall is offline
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so.....to update, as exciting as searching for a new guitar is, I've been increasingly feeling a tremor in The Force which has been telling me I'm going to seriously regret letting the Matsuda go. With a large slice of help from my fellow guitar fanatic father, I've managed to solve the financial issue that was forcing the sale. So I'm keeping it and I couldn't be happier. Whilst at TNAG I compared it to a whole bunch of other guitars just to be sure (Kostal, Sands, Ryan, Kraut amongst them) and it is definitely the guitar for me. The only challenger was a stunning Kraut OMC that has just arrived on consignment.

I still have every intention of complimenting it with a 000 a bit further down the line as it's a traditional style that I absolutely love. Hopefully a Bown or a Bowerman maybe, once the finances fully recover!

Thanks for the wise words and advice everyone. Much appreciated.
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  #73  
Old 03-07-2019, 04:23 AM
gitarro gitarro is offline
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Im glad that has resolved itself - im not surprised that you found the matsuda more than a match for those named guitars.
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  #74  
Old 03-07-2019, 07:37 AM
NickRundall NickRundall is offline
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Originally Posted by gitarro View Post
Im glad that has resolved itself - im not surprised that you found the matsuda more than a match for those named guitars.
It sure is a dream machine. To be honest I probably didn't fully appreciate quite what I had until I went through this process. When I originally bought it, it was one of those moments where it just leapt out at me and I knew I had to find a way to buy it. I just instantly fell in love with it. But I hadn't actually compared it to many other guitars of that calibre. Since the start of this thread I've compared it to so many and really expanded my frame of reference. Now I'm even more blown away by it. The thing that surprised me most was how different it felt to the other Somogyi apprentice guitars - I really wasn't expecting that.
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  #75  
Old 03-10-2019, 08:03 AM
Marcus Wong Marcus Wong is offline
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Originally Posted by NickRundall View Post
so.....to update, as exciting as searching for a new guitar is, I've been increasingly feeling a tremor in The Force which has been telling me I'm going to seriously regret letting the Matsuda go. With a large slice of help from my fellow guitar fanatic father, I've managed to solve the financial issue that was forcing the sale. So I'm keeping it and I couldn't be happier. Whilst at TNAG I compared it to a whole bunch of other guitars just to be sure (Kostal, Sands, Ryan, Kraut amongst them) and it is definitely the guitar for me. The only challenger was a stunning Kraut OMC that has just arrived on consignment.

I still have every intention of complimenting it with a 000 a bit further down the line as it's a traditional style that I absolutely love. Hopefully a Bown or a Bowerman maybe, once the finances fully recover!

Thanks for the wise words and advice everyone. Much appreciated.
Nick knows that I approve of his decision. Matsuda is perhaps one of the most under appreciated luthiers of our time. Sure he has his fans, but his prices and popularity relative to his sheer skill and talent in creating not only the most incredible looking, but also sounding guitars, is shockingly low! Enjoy it in good health buddy
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