Pickup frustration!

[JonPR]

Hi everyone. I seek your indulgence here. I'm trying to find a good pickup for my 1972 Guild F30, and am struggling. I've tried several things, but nothing so far sounds anywhere near as good as other people's set-ups seem to (even with the same hardware).

I don't play out in public very much, and don't have my own acoustic amp (my usual gigs are on electric), so with the Guild I'm always at the mercy of PA systems, or borrowed amps.

I've had especially terrible sounds through borrowed AER amps, twice (different pickup each time), and through good PA systems, twice. Unbelievably bad, even though when tested at home beforehand (Behringer UMC204 interface, AKG K702 headphones) it sounded fine. I'll admit I've not used any kind of EQ between guitar and amp.

Anyway, I've tested three different pickup systems, most recently a baggs active ibeam. This has not solved my problem as I'd hoped.

To try to narrow down the decision - and to decide whether I need to move on to try a fourth - I've recorded six different A-B comparisons, different pairs of pickups including comparing one of the PUs with a recording via a condenser mic (Behringer C-3).

I have two output jacks installed so can record a couple of different permutations of pickup pairs (or a PU plus mic) in stereo.

Of course, in most cases, the two sources together (any of the pairs) sound better than either one on its own, but playing stereo at gigs (or through 2 channels of a PA mixed) is rarely practical or possible, so ideally I want to settle on one choice. It ought to be possible, right?

So this is where you good people come in.

In the samples I'm linking (see below), the L and R channels (panned 20% either way, L always first) alternate every few seconds (each track is around 30 seconds), so you can get an A-B comparison. You can of course listen in mono if you prefer; the alternation in sound source should be obvious when it occurs.

I won't tell you which PU is which for now, so as not to bias your opinion. All I really want is an honest opinion about which sound you like best. Obviously I know this is all subjective, but I'd be very interested in other opinions, as I'm starting to question my ears.... (I have a current favourite, but it's by no means perfect - I don't think any of these sound as good as most PU demos I've heard. Live, everyone else's guitar always seems to sound better than mine.)

BTW, you'll see there are seven different sounds identified: ABCDEFG. This is because three of them are different sitings of the ibeam - and (most confusingly) two of them are the same position of the ibeam on different days (once the same day it was fitted, the other a few days later). Clearly, the adhesive seems to bed itself in (which, to be fair, the manual does say).

Those of you with some technical knowledge and experience may like to try and guess which source is which (there are clues in the manner of installation), but for the rest of you a simple preference is enough. You can pick best and worst, or rank them all in order if you like.

Sound sources:

Behringer C-3 mic (positioned around 9" in front of 12th fret) - this should be the easiest source to identify.
K&K pure mini
L R Baggs ibeam
Lark Dream 368 (undersaddle plus internal mic)

All were recorded with Audacity, and no tweaking of the audio has been made, other than to normalise all to the same maximum level.

Further details: strings are Martin custom light (11-52), all tracks are in DADGAD, and are attempts at two Bert Jansch pieces. (No need to criticise the playing, btw; I'm perfectly capable of that myself. )

Test 1 = A-B avocet
https://soundcloud.com/user-579260473/test-1-avocet-a-b

Test 2 = C-B first time ever I saw your face
https://soundcloud.com/user-57926047...first-time-c-b

Test 3 = D-E avocet
https://soundcloud.com/user-579260473/test-3-avocet-d-e

Test 4 = E-B first time ever I saw your face
https://soundcloud.com/user-57926047...first-time-e-b

Test 5 = F-B avocet
https://soundcloud.com/user-579260473/test-5-avocet-f-b

Test 6 = G-F first time ever I saw your face
https://soundcloud.com/user-57926047...first-time-g-f

"A-B" means source A comes first, panned slightly left, and B follows after a few seconds, panned slightly right. In four of the tracks, as you can see, source B is the second sound.
Test 2 ends with individual string sounds, in case that helps.

Enjoy! (Or not, as the case may be.)

Answers to which PU is which will be provided once I've had a reasonable number of replies, assuming you are interested.

[Groover]

Hi

Test 6 for me. Only listened on a iPad and don’t have Golden Ears

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Groover

Hi

Test 6 for me. Only listened on a iPad and don’t have Golden Ears

Thanks - but which sound in test 6? Each test has two alternatives.

[ManyMartinMan]

I don't listen to clips on line to render an opinion on sound because everyone listening is hearing something different due to their equipment - most of it unsuited for hi-fidelity sound.

If you are not satisfied with the sound, it doesn't matter what any of us thinks is the "best" sounding clip. I would say that just working with the I-Beam and K&K mini (they are very different in every aspect) if you aren't satisfied with one of these, I would get a sound person to help you EQ your sound using a nice small mixer. A major problem is that you're not playing through any consistent PA or amplifier and that you're trying to get a "sound" without consistency. However, if you get your system properly EQ'd by a professional sound person, you should then only have to tweak it slightly when changing PA systems or amplifiers. In fact, once you get your sound dialed in on your "system", whether that's a pedal board or small mixer, you should be able to zero out (seeking unity) any system you're playing through and get a pretty close sound. Even when moving around.

[M Hayden]

Are you using any kind of preamp at all? SOunds as though you’re not.

Maybe try a PADI or something and dial in something you like through headphones or a test PA and see how it works. It seems as though a good pre is a necessity.

[Br1ck]

I could tell you to get Dazzo pickups and a SunnAudio Stage 1 DI, plug it in and forget about it.

Ok , I just did so I'll tell you why. Dazzos are the only system I have seen that tailor the pickup to your guitar. Not picking on K&K, they are a good pickup, but one size fits all, then you EQ the sound to work.

With Dazzos, you get a pickup that works for your guitar. Have a parlor in need of more bass, buy a 100 set. Have a dread? Probably go with 70s. Get the right set, and Teddy Randazzo can nail that for you, and EQ becomes a matter of adjusting for the room, not compensating for the signal coming from a guitar.

I was a huge RedEye fan. The SunnAudio is just better, and actually designed to use with Dazzos.

I'm not chasing the holy grail of tone. I just want to sound good with no hassle. Plug. Play.

I have six Dazzo sets now.

[Doug Young]

I'm totally confused :-) What is each AB test? Where does the Behringer mic fit in?

What I'd suggest is just 4 files (you have 3 pickups, if I read right): one of the mic, and then one for each pickup. people can AB by switching back and forth.

in spite of not being able to understand what you're comparing, in my quick listen, each sample sounds totally different. It should be pretty easy to decide which sound you like, since they're kind of night and day.

[AlfredFelix]

After a quick listen, as in very quick. However my first thought is that Test 6 is also my favorite. Within that, I prefer G over F, but everything is a far distance behind F. I would however love to know the actual answers.

[varmonter]

I see no mention of any line matching or preamp/di between your guitar and
Pa or recording source. Not too familiar with the ibeam but I think it’s a soundboard transducer type like kk or dazzo and not an undesaddle.
I can only tell you my experiences with such pickups is they need
Outboard gear to sound decent . Especially if you PA systems keep varying.
Recorded and live sound are worlds apart.
My suggestion would be at a minimum to beg borrow or steal a di box.
Better to get a preamp/di
I installed a baggs m80 soundhole pup in addition to a kk in my d28s.
The m80 sound decent in anything I plug it into.
The kk when properly eq’d sounds better but requires the preamp ( grace felix).
So I never use it at open mics or where I am at the mercy of a sound tech.

[JonPR]

Thank you all! Perhaps not quite as detailed as I was hoping, but that's my bad. I fully understand and appreciate the alternative recommendations. I think I was just getting frustrated at how difficult I was finding it, when no one else seemed to have this problem! And I needed to vent at some people who might understand what I was going through.

Anyhow.... to answer a couple of the above questions.

There are so many samples, because the ibeam sounded quite different in each of three different positions - and then also sounded different in its final position a few days later, without me doing anything.

Here are the answers:

A = K&K pure mini
B = Lark Dream 368 (yup, dirt cheap undersaddle plus mic plus pre-amp, goes under various names https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vics-Equali.../dp/B00EX1HGYA )
C = Baggs ibeam, first position
D = Baggs ibeam, 2nd position
E = Baggs ibeam, 3rd position (recording 3, D-E, spliced two takes together)
F = Baggs ibeam, 3rd position, 2 or 3 days later (no physical change in position or in manner of recording)
G = Behringer mic.

The only issue I'd had with the K&K was having no pre-amp, no internal controls. It was powerful enough straight into an amp or PA, but the sound in public was never as good as I got at home. I'd characterise it as kind of "hard" - maybe too much middle. These were on occasions where other acoustic players plugged into the same system and got good sounds. (They had different pickup systems, of course.)

The Lark Dream was kind of a joke at the price (around £12), but had to be worth trying. The internal mic was a good selling point, as well as the 4-band EQ (one of which is actually the mic itself.)
It actually gave a more rounded - and adjustable - sound than the K&K. I used it live successfully a few times (at open mics, small PA systems) until one recent gig (through a full pro PA system at a festival) where the engineer said it was distorting. I couldn't hear it myself (sounded OK to me in the foldback), but I replaced the battery - and he said it was sounding the same. (I switched to the K&K which was fine.) Testing the LD again at home, I found it did distort sometimes - subtly, but clearly. Obviously, that makes it useless if it only sounds clean sometimes....(and I couldn't trace why it distorted, it didn't seem to depend on the EQ/volume levels.) But hey, it was cheap!

The ease of installation - and a whole lot of glowing reviews, including one from an engineer friend - persuaded me to get the ibeam. The first position (C) - following the installation instructions to the letter - sounded disappointing, so I shifted it a little (D). It sounded worse, so I shifted it back to more or less the original site (E).
That seemed OK at home (if somewhat thin) but sounded incredibly awful (as mentioned) when I tried it that same night in a borrowed AER (which sounded fine when other guitarists - with various PU types - plugged into it). The already thin sound was exaggerated by the amp to a painful extent - some fiddling with the EQ helped but not much.

Naturally that was depressing (I'd spent a lot of money, and why isn't it working?). But after a couple of days, rather than rip it out (or try moving it again), I tried another recording - and - as a couple of you seem to be confirming - it sounded a whole lot better. It's obviously settled in somehow, gaining some bass, losing some top (but not too much).

I had to remove the K&K, btw, in order to install the ibeam, so I had no way of directly comparing them on the same recording. But I did get the distinct impression that even with the ibeam's volume all the way up it wasn't as powerful as the K&K.

Again, thanks for all your responses, and your patience in trying to make sense of my request! Hopefully some of this may be useful to anyone else thinking of buying any of the above PUs.

I'm going to stick with the ibeam for now. I hesitate to spend more on an additional pre-amp (this is the active ibeam after all), because I wanted to avoid having any outboard gear to fiddle with when performing at open mics, but I do have an EQ unit which I'll experiment with.

[Doug Young]

Ah, got it, I didn't catch the different position aspect. A couple of comments:

Any passive pickup is sensitive to the input impedance it's plugged into. That's why K&Ks aren't a great idea if you're showing up at open mics and so on where you don't have control over what you're plugging into *unless* you have a preamp or DI you can bring with you to ensure you know what you're plugging into. Doesn't have to be a fancy preamp - a $20 DI will do. However, I also would avoid recommending "unusual" pickups to anyone who isn't in control of their sound, you show up at an open mic with something substantially different from what everyone is using, and the odds are against you. Some years ago, the norm was a Fishman matrix. These days, maybe more commonly a Taylor ES, but who knows, things are a little more fragmented now. In any case, 99% are USTs, so that's what the sound guy is expecting. K&Ks are common here on AGF, quite rare in the world at large. K&Ks are also known for being "warm", midrangey, which is a feature for some, a bug for others, so it depends on what you like as far as sound.

The iBeam isn't something that I see being used much anymore. It had some buzz when it first came out, but this is the first mention of it I've noticed in a long time. I never had much success with it, but again, a matter of taste. To me, it was thin and "nasal" sounding - tho I recall hearing it in a few guitars where it sounded good. The iMix system Baggs had that used it along with something else seemed promising, as I recall. However, like all SBTs, ideally, you want to install it on the saddle line. Not only is that probably the best sounding spot, it's the most predictable spot. You can move it a mm or so off the saddle line to tweak the tone a bit, but I'd avoid anything more radical. Other places tend to have wonky behavior - they may sound good at home at low volume, or ok on a direct recording, but you may get all kinds of weird resonances and unexpected reactions when playing at performance volume. People also experimented with different tapes with the iBeam, and different tapes get different sounds...

You mentioned the iBeam sounded different after a few days, and this is common with pickups that are taped, or glued - the adhesive bonds over time and the sound changes. K&Ks with the instant-bonding superglue don't seem to have this behavior, but other pickups that use different glues or tapes often do.

[M Hayden]

I’m one of the relative few for whom the IBeam works. I’ve got a passive in one of my guitars and it sounds great through a good preamp (Raven, Rane, PADI, or a good tube pre). But yeah, it doesn’t work for everything, for sure. Adn that’s not an instrument I bring to open mics - that’s what instruments with barn-door preamps are for, since they are more or less plug and play.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

K&Ks are also known for being "warm", midrangey, which is a feature for some, a bug for others, so it depends on what you like as far as sound.

Yes - I did find them too midrange. I like a warm sound, but I also like a good spread of frequency.

Originally Posted by Doug Young

The iBeam isn't something that I see being used much anymore. It had some buzz when it first came out, but this is the first mention of it I've noticed in a long time. I never had much success with it, but again, a matter of taste. To me, it was thin and "nasal" sounding

That's exactly how I'd describe how it sounded on that 3rd setting, before it settled in.

Originally Posted by Doug Young

- tho I recall hearing it in a few guitars where it sounded good. The iMix system Baggs had that used it along with something else seemed promising, as I recall. However, like all SBTs, ideally, you want to install it on the saddle line. Not only is that probably the best sounding spot, it's the most predictable spot. You can move it a mm or so off the saddle line to tweak the tone a bit, but I'd avoid anything more radical.

Yes, that's kind of what I found. It was under the saddle line to begin with - wasn't sure about the sound there, so shifted it a little forward of the saddle: didn't improve, so moved it back (new adhesive).

Originally Posted by Doug Young

People also experimented with different tapes with the iBeam, and different tapes get different sounds...

You mentioned the iBeam sounded different after a few days, and this is common with pickups that are taped, or glued - the adhesive bonds over time and the sound changes. K&Ks with the instant-bonding superglue don't seem to have this behavior, but other pickups that use different glues or tapes often do.

Again, that matches my experience.
The K&K was positioned (with the rig provided) just ahead of the saddle line, but the ibeam specifies directly under the saddle as ideal.
The glue strip baggs provided did seem on the thick side - but I'm not sure I'd dare superglue it, like the K&K.
Anyway, it seems to be OK now, although I may continue my research into other options (as far as my wallet and sanity will allow...).

Thanks for the response.

[stevecuss]

Well, wallet and sanity are to be taken seriously, to be sure, but IMO, you were close to your solution when you had the K&K installed. I'd second Doug's recommendation (and of course Doug is the Maestro, I am the grasshopper in this.) But I'd recommend a DI with some form of EQ - lots of options and you can buy them used. I like the old Ultrasound, K&K sells one, Baggs has some.

If you can cut some low mids and help your K&K happily get to the sound man, your problem might well be solved.

I had a guitar with an Ibeam in it when they first came out. I never could get it to sound good in that guitar which of course doesn't mean it cannot sound good.

And again, to Doug's point, a Fishman Matrix with a Fishman Aura Pedal or Tone Dexter type solution would make you golden

Originally Posted by JonPR

Yes - I did find them too midrange. I like a warm sound, but I also like a good spread of frequency.
That's exactly how I'd describe how it sounded on that 3rd setting, before it settled in.
Yes, that's kind of what I found. It was under the saddle line to begin with - wasn't sure about the sound there, so shifted it a little forward of the saddle: didn't improve, so moved it back (new adhesive).
Again, that matches my experience.
The K&K was positioned (with the rig provided) just ahead of the saddle line, but the ibeam specifies directly under the saddle as ideal.
The glue strip baggs provided did seem on the thick side - but I'm not sure I'd dare superglue it, like the K&K.
Anyway, it seems to be OK now, although I may continue my research into other options (as far as my wallet and sanity will allow...).

Thanks for the response.

[vibrolucky]

Originally Posted by varmonter

I see no mention of any line matching or preamp/di between your guitar and
Pa or recording source. Not too familiar with the ibeam but I think it’s a soundboard transducer type like kk or dazzo and not an undesaddle.
I can only tell you my experiences with such pickups is they need
Outboard gear to sound decent . Especially if you PA systems keep varying.
Recorded and live sound are worlds apart.
My suggestion would be at a minimum to beg borrow or steal a di box.
Better to get a preamp/di
I installed a baggs m80 soundhole pup in addition to a kk in my d28s.
The m80 sound decent in anything I plug it into.
The kk when properly eq’d sounds better but requires the preamp ( grace felix).
So I never use it at open mics or where I am at the mercy of a sound tech.

What he said