***UPDATE*** - Help for a newbie playing in a band

[RogerPease]

Tons of good advice here!

I’ll just add that I couldn’t get a good sound out of my J45 with the stock Element pickup.
So I upgraded it to an Anthem SL. *WAY* better sound.
I’ll just note that the mic level adjustment is touchy and takes a little patience to get right.
That said, I haven’t had to touch it since.
Since the Element UST is part of the SL upgrading was simple, no new holes.
The upgrade could be reversed if you needed to.

Cheers, _Roger

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by jpbrooks

I'm sure it has to do with the DI that is at the church. Also, the HD28 with k&k was borrowed and I traded the d-18 for the J45. So I have been exclusively playing the J-45. Again it doesn't sound terrible, other band members say it sounds fine, I just don't like the higher frequencies with it. With the 000-28ec I just don't want to put anything under the saddle. I was thinking k&k, but due to my experience with the HD-28, I know I will need a preamp and just not sure which will give me better volume output. I think the m80 sounds like what I need. Thanks for the input.

Hi Jpb

A K&K with the addition of a Fishman Platinum Stage preamp (which has the DI built in as well as a ton of other features) is the sleeper when it comes to preamps for simple acoustic setups. It is labeled and understandable in simple language.

I carry one of these as a backup and loaner, and it is a gem of a preamp for K&K style pickups, and for under saddle passive pickups. The case is built out of thick aluminum, and it even fits under the headstock of one of my cases (I carry it in my gear bag though). I took a picture of it next to my ParaDI (Baggs) which is a nightmare if you don't speak tech, plus the ParaDI is 20 year old tech.

At $169 bucks it's a quiet (low self noise), preamp, direct box, low cut at your choice of 3 frequencies, phase shift, Three way tone with adjustable mids, and auto ground lift. It has an adjustable boost, but it has to be engaged via a button on the side of the unit (inconvenient and useless). It is durable and stage worthy.

Can be run via 9V power supply, battery, or phantom power from the board/mixer.

It's simple, efficient, quiet, and thorough solution for a reasonable price.

[jpbrooks]

Thanks. Do you think the fishman would also help the j45 with the element sounds better?

[lavern23]

Following. I’m in a similar situation. Haven’t played in about 10 years and getting back to playing in church. My Taylor has a B-Band pickup that works great but no longer available. I’d like to add a pickup to my Martin and stuck on the same fence. K&K, James May, LR Baggs, etc…

[Driftless]

Originally Posted by jseth

I realize that this is not the answer you may want to hear, but, given your situation, I would strongly recommend that you check out a good soundhole magnetic pickup, It's not going to sound all that acoustic-y, but it will give you a much more manageable signal in that rock group format.

Any of those soundboard pickups you mention (K&K, Trance, etc.) are going to be problematic at higher volume levels... the Anthem "might' do okay, but you'd probably be running it nearly fully on the UST portion to avoid excessive feedback - and the Element IS the UST portion of the Anthem pickups.

The most cost effective solution would be to stick with the Element in the J-45, and possibly get a preamp that has the tone shaping capability that you require.

The issue is that, when playing in a 5 or 6 piece group, you really don't want all the rich, full, resonance that a great acoustic tone has... you want something thinner that can "sit" in the mix of all the instruments and voices without adding a whole bunch of lower frequencies. It's a demanding proposition!

There is no way to EQ the quack out of a ust sound.
A preamp can boost the signal of a k&k or similar, and there is no reason it should feedback if they're not blasting the top with a really loud wedge, and they said they're using in ears.
How someone wants an acoustic EQed in a band mix is personal and particular to individuals and different types of music. I do not cut lows when I mix a dread with a band. The lows are part of why I want it in the mix in the first place. The music is arranged to take advantage of the actual instrument sounds in the mix.

[shufflebeat]

Originally Posted by Driftless

There is no way to EQ the quack out of a ust sound.

That's too definitive a statement. Apart from my own playing I tech with a band who use USTs on several guitars and can easily get a sweet, "quack" free sound out of them.

The SBT mandolin and bridge piezo fiddle are different animals altogether with very different issues but all can be accommodated with decent, sometimes brutal looking EQ.

There are systems I would struggle with more than others but I've not come across anything recently, maybe 15yrs, that I couldn't work with.

For the record - I'm a Takamine/Tonedexter user.

[fwphoto]

Originally Posted by lavern23

Following. I’m in a similar situation. Haven’t played in about 10 years and getting back to playing in church. My Taylor has a B-Band pickup that works great but no longer available. I’d like to add a pickup to my Martin and stuck on the same fence. K&K, James May, LR Baggs, etc…

I play in a large, loud praise band & I have updated both of my "gigging" Martins to the Ultra Tonic. I converted the K&K in my OM-21 to the Ultra Tonic & was so happy with it that I then had the pickup in my D-18 changed to the standard Ultra Tonic. I couldn't be happier. Great, even tone across the strings & zero feedback. I recommend them highly. (No connection, though, to James May or his pickups. :-)

Take care,

Frank

[jpbrooks]

*****UPDATE*****

So I'm very disappointed. I bought the m80 soundhole pickup and it doesn't fit in my 000-28ec. I never considered that one of LR Baggs most popular pickups wouldn't fit in one of Martin's most popular models.

I bought it used but in excellent condition, so I guess I'll just sell it and hope to not take too much of a loss. I was really excited about this and had done a bunch of research. I guess it's back to square one.

I do feel limited by my location. Some of the pickups you folks recommend are not very common and the shops in Jackson, MS don't have any experience installing them and that worries me.

I think I am leaning toward the k&k with red-eye or just biting the bullet and having an anthem installed.

Thanks

[varmonter]

Lots of good advice here..the m80 is a good
Pickup.. but the brown underside has these 2 protrusions that prevent it from going in smaller soundholes..and the active/passive switch is in an out of reach place for most.
I use a sunrise mag and it even fits in my parlor.and larger guitars. Competing with electric the kk is just going to feedback at those volumes..the innate nature if piezos is to
respond exponentially to vibration. Loud bass and guitar just makes your top vibrate
...making the piezo go nuts..mags are a more linear response to string vibration so it's not nearly as prone to feedback as a piezo like kk.

[willymartin]

Originally Posted by jpbrooks

other band members say it sounds fine.

I would suggest the two biggest problems that day were you (see quote) and the sound guy. (the Element...yuk...get the m80 for that guitar for now). Playing acoustic solo for as long as you have then jamming with a band for the first time can be quite the adjustment. I went through it years ago. As someone else mentioned, you don't want your guitar to sound exactly like a guitar on a full band setting...your sound is now a much smaller piece of the puzzle...but your ears are still wanting to hear that rich, full range tone you have been used to...(which you never heard with the Element...haha). M80 is a good start and your sound guy just wasn't turning ya up as much as you wanted..sometimes they can't increase the stage volume without creating other issues (stage volumes could be a whole discussion..) Get a good DI...don't rely on sound guys...give em a good signal and set yourself up with a great lil acoustic amp so you can always hear yourself. Good luck!

[hann]

I’ve been chasing that elusive sound for years myself.
My stance is a dual source system is invaluable.
I’ve always maintained 2 sounds are needed for a band set: 1. Full band mix, 2. Acoustic only solos.

Systems like an anthem could work well, more element in a band, turn the mic up just a tad when playing alone.

For years I’ve used a dtar wavelength/k&k mini and blended offboard on a headway preamp.

Now I’m experimenting with a Dazzo blended onboard with a ust. I’d have gone Mag instead of ust if I didn’t have thumb wheels at the sound hole.

Fishman powertap earth sounded pretty good for a fuss free system and there are many other dual source systems available without having to marry different brands together.

Caveat: what others say about the PA is true. Anthem sounded glorious at home, and at church it was nails on a chalkboard. Forgot to ask PA to flat the eq during soundcheck.

[hann]

Another thing.

USTs really benefit from a voltage bumped preamp.

The DTAR wavelength is bumped to 18v. Exponentially easier to work with.