About figuring a song out by ear...

[Guitars+gems]

I can always figure out one-note-at-a-time melody lines, but they sound boring without chords. Unless a song adheres to a I IV V, I'm at a loss. Strumming random chords today, I happened to follow a C with an Em and noticed that sounded like the start of Space Oddity. So I thought it must be a C scale and I got out a Nashville Numbering chart to see what other chords I could fill in. I found the Am and the F worked, and the E minor. I couldn't get the G to sound right anywhere, and the D sounded good, but not the minor. The B didn't sound right as a B major, minor, or 7th. It seemed like I was sort of close, but not really.

So I looked up a tab, I saw that a Bb had been used. I never thought of trying that, but it was perfect for that line "Planet earth is blue..." Also, the person who wrote the tab used an E major and an F Minor in addition to the F major and Em which are already part of the song. And they sounded good where he used them. For, "And I'm floating in a most peculiar way" I had F C F and he had Fm C F. That Fm sounds closer to the way Bowie played it. There was another arrangement that used a lot of sevenths. How does that work? Just put them in where you like them, or what?

My question is, if the key is the first degree of the first chord, then can you expect to find most of the chords within that scale? And how could I have known to use the D and E majors, the F minor and the Bb since they aren't really part of the scale? Is it just trial and error?

[mattbn73]

Originally Posted by Guitars+gems

My question is, if the key is the first degree of the first chord,

Not always. It's a good starting point, rule of thumb, for very simple tunes . Ending chord is closer, but not ALWAYS as a rule. High percentage though.

Originally Posted by Guitars+gems

My question is, if the key is the first degree of the first chord, then can you expect to find most of the chords within that scale? And how could I have known to use the D and E majors, the F minor and the Bb since they aren't really part of the scale? Is it just trial and error?

a better beginning question -I'd the the first chord is C-major night be: "Is the C major chord the I, IV or V?". Again, that's not 100% of the time, but that'll get you closer on more modal rock tunes etc.

I like the Nashville numbers idea, but I would maybe take it one step farther. Find one of those charts on the inter webs with the chords arranged by circle of fifths , major on the outside and minor on the inside. A lot of times they'll even show you how group the six chords you're looking for in a given key . Anyway, 90% of the time most of the chords for your tune are going to be within those six chords. Now, beyond those, the next really high percentage chords, related to that key, are going to be the chords immediately to the left and right -found in closely associated keys. Something like this: https://goo.gl/images/S4yfSz

Trial and error is a huge part of it, but there are some approaches to get you there a little faster as well.

[rick-slo]

It's not an issue about what should be, or usually is, if you go by ear. Many songs use chord substitutions,
parallel key chords, in and out of major chords, key changes, etc.. Then again many songs don't, so knowing
the chords native to the key is a good starting point.

[Llewlyn]

Originally Posted by Guitars+gems

So I looked up a tab, I saw that a Bb had been used. I never thought of trying that, but it was perfect for that line "Planet earth is blue..." Also, the person who wrote the tab used an E major and an F Minor in addition to the F major and Em which are already part of the song. And they sounded good where he used them. For, "And I'm floating in a most peculiar way" I had F C F and he had Fm C F. That Fm sounds closer to the way Bowie played it.

Hard to tell but the tune might be in F major, with F minor as a substitute. If you posted the whole chord progression maybe we could help a bit in analyzing the tune?

There was another arrangement that used a lot of sevenths. How does that work? Just put them in where you like them, or what? My question is, if the key is the first degree of the first chord, then can you expect to find most of the chords within that scale? And how could I have known to use the D and E majors, the F minor and the Bb since they aren't really part of the scale? Is it just trial and error?

What I do to learn a song by ear:

1. First, I figure the key. Both melody and harmony contains hints and this is usually not a hard task.
2. The key tells me the scale - on the scale I figure the melody. If I spot notes "off-scales" I got a hint that something might happen in the harmony as well so I'm prepared to look for different chords.
3. Then I harmonize the scale and get the seven chords. Those are my "main chords" and I divide them in classes: tonic, dominant and subdominant.
4. The I play/sing the melody of the tune try to find the chords. I am really not picky about the exact chord but I just try to figure out the class. For example, if I feel that the chord is a dominant one (and we are, say, in the key of C) I am not too picky about G7 or Bminb5: I use whatever sounds good/close to the original.
5. For the off-scale chords, I find that most of the times they are (a) just dominant chord that stresses the relaxation to the next chord (b) scale changes following the circle of fourth. Clearly, the level of complexity depends on the music you hear but I find that for what I do that's really enough.

Ll.

[Silly Moustache]

Working out "Harmonising the scale" is most helpful too.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Llewlyn

Hard to tell but the tune might be in F major, with F minor as a substitute. If you posted the whole chord progression maybe we could help a bit in analyzing the tune?



What I do to learn a song by ear:

1. First, I figure the key. Both melody and harmony contains hints and this is usually not a hard task.
2. The key tells me the scale - on the scale I figure the melody. If I spot notes "off-scales" I got a hint that something might happen in the harmony as well so I'm prepared to look for different chords.
3. Then I harmonize the scale and get the seven chords. Those are my "main chords" and I divide them in classes: tonic, dominant and subdominant.
4. The I play/sing the melody of the tune try to find the chords. I am really not picky about the exact chord but I just try to figure out the class. For example, if I feel that the chord is a dominant one (and we are, say, in the key of C) I am not too picky about G7 or Bminb5: I use whatever sounds good/close to the original.
5. For the off-scale chords, I find that most of the times they are (a) just dominant chord that stresses the relaxation to the next chord (b) scale changes following the circle of fourth. Clearly, the level of complexity depends on the music you hear but I find that for what I do that's really enough.

Ll.

This is an excellent description of the process. I would take this and run with it before the thread gets to convoluted.

Tony

[BFD]

Denise - way to go digging into this stuff! So many folks don't. And it sounds to me like you're already doing some pretty critical listening, which is an essential part of cultivating this skill.
To answer your questions:
1. Yes; if the key is say C, and the song is not overly complex, most or all of the chords will generally be built from the C scale.
2. As you do more ear transcribing you'll soon be able to hear when notes and chords are not from the home key. That doesn't necessarily tell you what they are but it does tell you what they aren't, which is useful.

Some folks have tossed a bunch of theory jargon at you, which you are welcome to research if you like, but it's certainly not necessary at this point. You'll get there if you continue the great work you're doing. As far as using your ear to figure out chords that fall outside the key, a pretty simple approach is to use single notes. While the tune is playing, find notes that sound right with the non-key sounding chords; they might be melody notes or not. Then try chords that have those notes in them. After a while you'll be able to narrow down the possibilities pretty quickly in a lot of cases.

[Guitars+gems]

Originally Posted by Llewlyn

What I do to learn a song by ear:

1. First, I figure the key. Both melody and harmony contains hints and this is usually not a hard task
2. The key tells me the scale - on the scale I figure the melody. If I spot notes "off-scales" I got a hint that something might happen in the harmony as well so I'm prepared to look for different chords.
3. Then I harmonize the scale and get the seven chords. Those are my "main chords" and I divide them in classes: tonic, dominant and subdominant.
4. The I play/sing the melody of the tune try to find the chords. I am really not picky about the exact chord but I just try to figure out the class. For example, if I feel that the chord is a dominant one (and we are, say, in the key of C) I am not too picky about G7 or Bminb5: I use whatever sounds good/close to the original.
5. For the off-scale chords, I find that most of the times they are (a) just dominant chord that stresses the relaxation to the next chord (b) scale changes following the circle of fourth. Clearly, the level of complexity depends on the music you hear but I find that for what I do that's really enough.

Ll.

This is exciting to me because I think I kind of did the bolded stuff. My approach is obviously haphazard, but I was going vaguely in the right direction. And I'm gonna work on using this approach more purposefully.
So thank you, Llewyn!

And thank you all. Every post has been helpful to me.

[Guitars+gems]

Originally Posted by BFD

Denise - way to go digging into this stuff! So many folks don't. And it sounds to me like you're already doing some pretty critical listening, which is an essential part of cultivating this skill.
To answer your questions:
1. Yes; if the key is say C, and the song is not overly complex, most or all of the chords will generally be built from the C scale.
2. As you do more ear transcribing you'll soon be able to hear when notes and chords are not from the home key. That doesn't necessarily tell you what they are but it does tell you what they aren't, which is useful.

Some folks have tossed a bunch of theory jargon at you, which you are welcome to research if you like, but it's certainly not necessary at this point. You'll get there if you continue the great work you're doing. As far as using your ear to figure out chords that fall outside the key, a pretty simple approach is to use single notes. While the tune is playing, find notes that sound right with the non-key sounding chords; they might be melody notes or not. Then try chords that have those notes in them. After a while you'll be able to narrow down the possibilities pretty quickly in a lot of cases.

Thank you, BFD, for this very helpful and encouraging post. This stuff can boggle my brain, so it's exciting to make a little progress . AND I played all the barre chords, so this song is within my reach!

[Pitar]

I tend to listen to the progression. Then, the dominant note (tone) of each change in the progression. Then I find the chord(s) the notes reside in and sort out which of them represent the melody. One strum per chord is all that takes. What can throw a wrench in the works is the pitch. The melody may be above or below concert pitch so I keep that in mind with a capo handy.

[Multicellular]

These seem like good tips above.

I just have one thing to add...when I hear a particularly complex fast chord, Ill slow it down and loop it so I can pick out the notes. I often do it in my DAW, but for a cheaper simple solution try Transcribe

http://www.seventhstring.com

[vbakh]

Originally Posted by Guitars+gems

And how could I have known to use the D and E majors, the F minor and the Bb since they aren't really part of the scale? Is it just trial and error?

These two tricks helped me to figure out chord progressions for non-jazzy songs and helped to train my ear:

1. Play the bass line and "CAGED" it.
Play a bass line using root notes only either mentally in your head (sing it!) or on your guitar. Skip chromatic passing chords/notes at first, keep the "essential" steps only.
If the root bass note is on the 6th string, it will be either a E-shaped or G-shaped chord. A bass note on the fifth string maps to a C-shaped or A-shaped chord, on the 4th string - to a D-shaped one. Then try to play AND SING both major and minor chords from each root bass note, listen and select the one that sounds right to you and fits the song.

2. Sing/play the triads and complete the chord.
Sing and/or play the melody. Every time when you hear that the chord changes, sing of play a triad arpeggio (major/minor/aug/dim) that fits the song from the melody note OR bass note sounding at that moment. Keep singing that triad and find that triad on guitar. Then extend that triad to the full chord as needed.

The first trick helps to find the area on the neck where the chord can be played, the second helps to understand the chord 'quality' - major/minor/... even its not on the main key's scale.

In more complex cases, you need to listen to the entire fragment while the tune stays on the same chord, and try to sing the notes you hear from the accompaniment. Then, again, find them on a guitar, play them with surrounding chords and decide whether it fits the song. Note that in "jazzy" tunes some melody notes often sound in dissonance with the chords.

Strictly speaking, you don't need a guitar to practice it. I used these tricks while I was on the bus, on the train, walking etc. The first skill needed is to be able to play (sing) the simplified bass line mentally, and then sing triads on top of that for each new chord. After some time, you'll be able to "play" popular songs in you head and identify all the chords it uses. Actually, it's not that difficult - just keep practicing.

For the complex tunes I'd use Transcribe! software as well (no strings attached), especially for finding the right alterations and embellishments in low quality audio files. Ear training tools like Ear Master Pro might help too.

Hope it helps. [EoD aka End of Dissertation]

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Guitars+gems

My question is, if the key is the first degree of the first chord, then can you expect to find most of the chords within that scale?

As mentioned, the first chord is not necessarily the key chord - although (in rock anyway) it usually is.
But if it is the key chord, then yes most of the chords are likely to come from that scale (major or minor depending on what kind of chord that key chord is).

Originally Posted by Guitars+gems

And how could I have known to use the D and E majors, the F minor and the Bb since they aren't really part of the scale? Is it just trial and error?

Well, there are some common conventions about the use of "chromatic" chords (from outside the key). They fall into two categories:

Secondary dominants
These are common in jazz, a little less common in rock (except among more sophisticated writers like Bowie, Beatles etc).
The idea is that a key has one "primary dominant": the V chord. G in the key of C. (If it has a 7th, then it's a dominant 7th - G7 - but it's "dominant" just by virtue of being "V". "Dominant" is the name of the V scale step, just as "tonic" is the name of the keynote and key chord.)
But all the other chords in the key can be given their own V chords, if we want. In key of C major, you can have all these:

D - leads to G
A - leads to Dm
E - leads to Am (sometimes indicating a modulation to the relative minor)
B - leads to Em
C7 - leads to F

(Only C7 needs a b7, Bb - otherwise it's just "I" - but you can of course add 7ths to the others if you want.).

So that takes care of the D and E in Space Oddity . (Some people say that a secondary dominant must lead to its target chord to be defined as such. So if you have a D or D7 in C major that doesn't lead to G, it needs some other explanation. That's a more refined theoretical issue that needn't bother you! It's only about labelling, after all.)

The sound of secondary dominants is a kind of "brightening" of the major key, injecting forward momentum into chord changes. In contrast to...

Borrowed chords, or mode mixture
This is less common in jazz, but standard practice in rock.
The idea here is that a key needn't be pure major or pure minor. It can be a mixture of the two. A major key can "borrow chords from the parallel minor" - and vice versa. So the following chords can all be used in C major (because they all come from C minor):

Bb, Eb, Ab, Fm.

So that takes care of the Fm in Space Oddity. Fm is especially common (in jazz too) in between F and C, because of the neat voice-leading (A-Ab-G) between the chords.
In classic heavy rock, you'll find those major borrowed chords all the time, but the minor IV chord is a more sophisticated choice. The Beatles loved it - so did Bowie, obviously - and so do Radiohead. Where the borrowed major chords add "heaviness" (dark power) to the plain major key, the minor IV adds an element of mystery or spookiness.

It's called "mode mixture" in the sense of parallel modes, btw. So the above chords are from C aeolian, dorian or mixolydian, mixed in with those from C ionian. You could also have a D or Bm borrowed from C lydian - or a Db or Bbm borrowed from C phrygian - but those are rarer. (Although a D in C major that doesn't lead to G could be labelled a lydian borrowed chord.)

To sum up: in key of C major, you might find any or (less likely!) all of the following chords:

C, C7, Dm, D(7), Eb, Em, E(7) F, Fm, G, Ab, Am, A(7), Bb, Bdim, B(7).

Others are possible, but rarer. Many of these chords may push or pull the key in different directions, but as long as C "sounds like home", the key is still C (major). Sometimes you'll even find Cm, but that's a more dramatic choice, signalling a switch (maybe temporary) to the parallel minor key itself.


Mode mixture in minor keys works as follows. In key of C minor, you can find any of the following (along with the aeolian set: Fm, Ab, Eb, Bb, Gm, Ddim):

G or G7 - standard classical major V chord, from C harmonic minor
Bdim7 - vii, from C harmonic minor, also classical convention
Dm or F - from C dorian or mixolydian
Am - from C major or mixolydian

You can have secondary dominants in minor keys too. In C minor you might find:

D - leads to G
C - leads to Fm
Bb - leads to Eb (sometimes indicating a modulation to the relative major)
Eb7 - leads to Ab
F - leads to Bb (but is more common as a dorian IV chord)

These can all have 7ths, but only the 7th on Eb is chromatic (Db), distinguishing it from the normal III chord in C minor. Again, what makes it key of C minor (regardless of all these other chords) is that C "sounds like home". As long as that's the case, the key is C (minor if the tonic chord is minor).

[Guitars+gems]

I want to thank you all for taking the time to give me so much theory to work on. And I will work on it! I really like this stuff!

[Al Acuff]

Here are links to a three part lesson by Ted Greene on tonality and music theory.

Most music theory lessons are based on a piano keyboard and that approach never made much sense to me as a guitarist. These lessons are written by a guitar player for guitar players. I hope you enjoy them as much as I have.

http://tedgreene.com/images/lessons/...1976-05-28.pdf

http://tedgreene.com/images/lessons/...1976-05-29.pdf

http://tedgreene.com/images/lessons/...1976-05-30.pdf