Can we have another vent thread about Taylor's obsession with ES2?

[dnf777]

Because it sells guitars for them. Bottom line success.
One could also ask that if youre going to spend $5000+, why buy a Taylor?

Taylor fills a needed niche, quite successfully at that. They are NOT Martins. They are not Epiphones or Seagulls. They are not botique builds. They are a mass-produced, quality guitar with some tonewood innovations with a slant towards sustainability. Many with an acceptable electronic system. At a reasonable price range.

If the ES2 bothers anyone that much, there are many fine alternatives.

[steelvibe]

I've never owned a Taylor so I have no opinion or personal experience, but I too enjoyed your rant. It is well written and even better argued. Unfortunately I don't have a solution. Good luck with your search!

[erhino41]

Originally Posted by Brent Hutto

Not “most people” just most Taylor buyers. Which of course it’s a self-fulfilling thing because that’s what is available in retail stores.

I've never owned a taylor. I have plugged several es2 equipped Taylor's and played them extensively at various guitar stores. I think the es2 sounds better than most other factory installed pickups. I'm not a fan of the overall taylor tone, but the es2 does a pretty good job of replicating that tone.

[erhino41]

Originally Posted by Sugar Bear

I'm about to remove some craptastic electronics from a guitar that I otherwise like enough to do some work on it and bring it up to speed.



I wish all manufacturers would stop installing electronics in acoustic guitars.



If I want electronics, I'll choose what I want myself, and install it myself.



I shouldn't have to undo the manufacturer's poor decisions, and I shouldn't have to finish work that should have been done before it went out the door of the factory.

You are in the minority of the guitar buying market. The vast majority of guitar buyers will not install their own pickups.

[12barBill]

Breath in
Breath out
Move on...

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by 12barBill

Breath in
Breath out
Move on...

Exactly!

Now, don't get me started on why, after using just about everything that's out there, I still love the Ovation OCP1K pickup, especially when paired with their VIP-5 and OP Pro Studio preamps in their Adamas guitars.

[SalFromChatham]

I bought a Taylor AD17E with an ES2 because I wanted a great sounding acoustic unplugged, with a very workable live sound as well. For 1300, I am not venting, I am gushing.

Did I mention it sounds great unplugged?

[Br1ck]

I'll play. Taylor has convinced people they need a pickup and they need a cut away. They need the new bracing too. It is the most successful marketing from a guitar company ever.

The ES 2 system works. That is all most people care about. For those 5% of the market who care, why should Taylor be concerned?

I help run an open mic. I've seen countless people play their Taylors. Maybe one in a hundred need/use a cutaway. Like I say, Taylor knows how to sell guitars. They make a very good product I happen not to care for. I don't like their necks, cutaways on acoustics, the bright tonal pallet, or electronics destined to be outdated far before the guitar falls apart. A whole lot of people disagree with me and that is fine.

Did I say I admire their marketing?

[SalFromChatham]

Brick… marketing or no marketing… the AD17E has no cutaway, and sounds great. It is not bright. Try one (if you have not already). I like not having a binding to worry about, or an underset neck.

I’ve owned probably as many acoustics as you have… mostly Gibsons and Martins. Of course some insane gems…

They are all guilty of marketing, but maybe it’s not a guilt thing. They can say what they like-all of them. At the end of the day the guitars speak for themselves. If you don’t believe me watch Wildwood blow out inventory on some models each model year end (absent pandemic)

[Bob Womack]

Someone should crowdfund a custom kit with a plate for the guitar that is made from matching wood, can be engraved with a name, and anchors in and covers the three holes for everyone who wants to remove the ES.

Or better, how about a universal preamp to fit in that slot so you can use another pickup?

Bob

[Nathan777]

Originally Posted by SalFromChatham

I bought a Taylor AD17E with an ES2 because I wanted a great sounding acoustic unplugged, with a very workable live sound as well. For 1300, I am not venting, I am gushing.

Did I mention it sounds great unplugged?

That's a great guitar for ES2! Perfect in fact. A real daily workhorse, wonderful for the couch, gig, studio. Awesome stuff.

On the other hand a $10k PS14ce with sinker redwood and cocobolo probably didn't deserve to be butchered with ES2 from the factory floor. Not that I would buy one, but I would consider some of the great limited 15-40 piece runs with really nice walnut, koa, cedar, macassar, etc. except they're all "e"-d before anyone even has a say.

[Street Glider]

Originally Posted by Nathan777

Are that many people who buy these limited $5,000+ Taylors really after a sub-standard electronics system from the factory that will be obsolete within the decade?

Hmmm... Let me go ponder this as I play my guitar equipped with a 30 year old Fishman Matrix...

[Street Glider]

Originally Posted by Nathan777

I'm depressed and need to vent. Looking for a nice 12 fret short scale cutaway. Taylor's obviously got a ton in that market segment. Why does every single one of the thousands for sale have a proprietary $400 electronics system in it leaving multiple holes in the guitar (people focus on the 3 knob holes but don't forget about the giant battery hole and ugly bridge holes) and filling it full of heavy circuit boards and sensors? Are that many people who buy these limited $5,000+ Taylors really after a sub-standard electronics system from the factory that will be obsolete within the decade?

I don't really care if it's a 300-level with some boring run of the mill woods from managed new growth forests, but when you see limited runs of 900 and PS-series with rare pieces of wood it's depressing right? I assume a lot of us like to think if we find a nice guitar it will be a lifetime guitar, or maybe even an heirloom for future generations, or heck maybe we just want it to have decent resale in the future, either way I find Taylor's ES systems to really be horrible in this regard. If ES2 sounded good maybe, maybe, I could forgive it, but it's not even anything special compared to basic K&K or Fishman systems that are easily reversible.

"But you can order most Taylors without electronics." Not an argument. Why should I pay list price and wait months just to get a guitar without electronics? And for some of their limited runs it's not even an option when they just pump out 40 of these things with the dreaded "e" suffix and ship them out never to be made again. Are there any dealers who just specialize in stocking Taylors without electronics and catering to people who don't want this mess in their beautiful new guitar? Seems like a good market segment to target. Rant over. I just get so frustrated looking through Reverb listings praying just one of these guitars doesn't have the dreaded 3 knobs hiding in the picture, but no, there they are, lurking, always.

I remember hearing Brian Swerdfeger, Taylor's former VP of Sales, discuss a similar topic with a Road Show attendee many years ago. The attendee was lamenting the absence of this or that on a guitar and, gee, why couldn't Taylor just build them the way the attendee wanted them to be built?

Swerdfeger's response "And then we could sell tens of them."

It made perfect sense...

[SalFromChatham]

Originally Posted by Nathan777

That's a great guitar for ES2! Perfect in fact. A real daily workhorse, wonderful for the couch, gig, studio. Awesome stuff.

On the other hand a $10k PS14ce with sinker redwood and cocobolo probably didn't deserve to be butchered with ES2 from the factory floor. Not that I would buy one, but I would consider some of the great limited 15-40 piece runs with really nice walnut, koa, cedar, macassar, etc. except they're all "e"-d before anyone even has a say.

I see your point..l

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Nathan777

That's a great guitar for ES2! Perfect in fact. A real daily workhorse, wonderful for the couch, gig, studio. Awesome stuff.

On the other hand a $10k PS14ce with sinker redwood and cocobolo probably didn't deserve to be butchered with ES2 from the factory floor. Not that I would buy one, but I would consider some of the great limited 15-40 piece runs with really nice walnut, koa, cedar, macassar, etc. except they're all "e"-d before anyone even has a say.

I tend to agree. Expensive custom guitars with fancy tone woods are less likely to be played on stage. However, Taylor knows their market and their customers like it that way. I wouldn’t buy a $10K Martin with an active pickup system. But I would buy a $2-$3K one if needed. I got accustomed to installing my own passive pickups.