How best to avoid mic bleed

[keith.rogers]

Lots of good replies.

I've done most of the possible arrangements of mics and tracking and can just tell you that in a home studio, without extensive treatment, you have to largely rely on placement to control bleed. (I don't even want to use the word "reduce" here.)

I like KevWind's suggestion to try moving the guitar mic off to the bass side, and the one to try just the AKG as a single mic approach. Then, you actually use the sensitivity of the AKG to capture both the voice and guitar, i.e., start with it as a single recording source, and use the SM57 to supplement.

With two mics both capturing the voice and guitar, the other thing I'll suggest is to spend a lot of time getting the "static" mix of the two tracks as good as possible. Then, put all your EQ, compression, reverb on the master bus to avoid any weirdness that can be introduced by different plugins acting on the same source and introducing phase problems. (You obviously cannot apply things like pitch correction in this kind of recording setup.)

Keep notes of what you do so when it works, you can recreate it!

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by keith.rogers

I like KevWind's suggestion to try moving the guitar mic off to the bass side, and the one to try just the AKG as a single mic approach...

The single mic approach can work, but placement is ultra-critical. And the voice and guitar have to be a good tonal fit without any help from EQ. With my voice and my guitar, they're not.

Doing maybe 150+ live broadcast recordings of singer-songwriters, I had the single-mic thing work exactly once. And I only did it because the guy both played and sang really, really loud -- tons of bleed -- so I tried the one mic as a Hail Mary and it luckily worked out. But very much the exception.

The rest of the time it was two cardioids, with the guitar mic in close and tilted as I described earlier. They had to be cardioids because of all the sound sources fairly close to the back sides of the mics, such as the show host, the interview guest, and sometimes additional musicians.

I have a Soundcloud page with a bunch of examples if anyone's interested.

[RyanR]

I just tried:

1. Dynamic mic for vocals (SM58 Beta)
2. Less sensitive condenser mic for guitar (AKG Perception 120)
3. Angle the condenser away from the vocals and towards the guitar bridge.

In a very short test (all I have time for right now) it seemed to work surprisingly well. I bet if I also put a shield around the mic I could get 90% of the way there. It will never be perfect, but it does not have to be.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by RyanR

I just tried:

1. Dynamic mic for vocals (SM58 Beta)
2. Less sensitive condenser mic for guitar (AKG Perception 120)
3. Angle the condenser away from the vocals and towards the guitar bridge.

In a very short test (all I have time for right now) it seemed to work surprisingly well. I bet if I also put a shield around the mic I could get 90% of the way there. It will never be perfect, but it does not have to be.

Plus remember if your voice and guitar are well suited, bleed is not necessarily your enemy.

[Mike J. Vitale]

Don't be afraid to try using just one mic to record guitar and vocals. The simpler setup sometimes can be exactly what your looking for or can give you an idea of what you want. The placement is a little more tricky but there's are no phase issues to worry about.

Just be aware that the more mics and fancy techniques that are used the more you're getting into engineer territory and away from the musician side of the recording process. That can be a lot for anyone to take on when maybe they're just trying to record a demo.

I sincerely hope this is helpful, I'm really don't mean to be condescending or anything like that (I've had to remind myself of these things).

[Brent Hahn]

Late edit... said the same thing three weeks ago. Duh. At least I'm consistent.

[Thom PC]

First of all, many here have more experience than me, I am nothing more than a recording hobbyist. Now, with that said:

In theory, I like the single mic approach for its simplicity and zero phase issues. In reality, I have found it to be hard to maintain a consistent balance between vocal and accompaniment.

My choice in the given situation with the given equipment would probably be to record the guitar with the SM57, I have had decent results with this approach in the past, and use the condenser as the vocal mic. And I would aim for vocal clarity as a first priority, try to reduce bleed from guitar as far as possible, but not at expense of vocal clarity. In the mix I would season to taste with the SM57 guitar track. I think this has given me decent results in the past.

I should probably add that this approach does not have the highest guitar fidelity as an ultimate goal, but rather the emotional message of the song (which in the case of my material is carried by the vocal anyway), the guitar is basically a support/accompaniment element relative to the vocal performance. But I wouldn't automatically assume that the SM57 should not be used for acoustic guitar recording. YMMV.

Good luck finding a solution!

Thom

[Al Acuff]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Plus remember if your voice and guitar are well suited, bleed is not necessarily your enemy.

Amen! Playing around in my home studio has led me to a place where I embrace the bleed.

Bleed can make you sound better or worse. It's a game of millimeters to get everything just right but bleed can sound great. Listen to Gillian Welch's album 'The Harrow And The Harvest". QED.

Make sure you try flipping the phase on one of your mics when you mix. More often than not I find it necessary to flip the phase on the guitar mic to get the bleed working for me instead of against.

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by Al Acuff

More often than not I find it necessary to flip the phase on the guitar mic to get the bleed working for me instead of against.

I was having that happen a lot -- flipping polarity at the tracking stage, since I was recording other people, not myself -- and then I realized that one of my tube mics had a generic power supply whose output was Pin 3 Hot. I've since discovered that those power supplies are all over the place.

[RyanR]

Just a final update.

I've continued to record with this setup:

1. Dynamic mic for vocals (SM58 Beta)
2. Less sensitive condenser mic for guitar (AKG Perception 120)
3. Angle the condenser away from the vocals and towards the guitar bridge.

I'm getting remarkable separation. No mic shield required.

What I found most important is that the AKG mic must be positioned and angled properly.

The Perception 120 is not all that sensitive as far as condensers go. I don't think this would work with my AKG 214 or any mic like that.

[The Bard Rocks]

Originally Posted by KevWind

In your situation and with the equipment you have

#1 yes over dubbing will eliminate the issue, but as you say if want to experiment with the "all in one shot technique", thats not the answer

#2 so if it were me I would try more mic position options to get more separation. One position might be the AKG out from the just below bottom of the bridge and angled slightly down and toward the back of the guitar and away from your mouth.and perhaps even consider positioning the AKG horizontal as opposed to vertical so as to be able to roll it downward slightly placing your mouth even more off axis
OR what about :
#3.Since I don't care for care for the sound of a 57 on vocal or acoustic guitar, and until such time as you get a new mic
If it were me I would experiment with the traditional single mic technique and try just using only the AKG. Placed about 12 to 14 inches out and between the top waist of the guitar and your mouth height wise, exact specific height placement dependent on your specific vocal and guitar playing volume levels relationship.

Think about #3. "When you can't lick 'em, join 'em."

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

Think about #3. "When you can't lick 'em, join 'em."

Huh ? I must slow on the uptake, I have no clue

[Al Acuff]

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Al Acuff

That works, but both the guitar and the vocal are going to be off axis so not as good as either could be if the mics were positioned normally. But that's the trade-off one might have to make if nothing else works.

I still think the best option is to record guitar and vox separately. I know it's not something that comes easily to most people in the beginning but it's a worthwhile skill to learn if one plans to do a lot of recording.

The first time I sat in a studio to be recorded was 20 years ago. I knew nothing and everything was hard to do. The engineer (who I now count as an old and close friend) encourage me to record separately and play to a click-track. I'd never done either and I was reluctant on both. Recording separately meant practicing in a new and very foreign way. I had to learn to sing without making a sound because if the lyrics weren't moving from my brain to my mouth with some emotion, the guitar tracks didn't translate correctly. Learning to play to a click was even harder. We recorded a bunch of songs without it and when I hear those songs now, the way the tempo continually increases makes me cringe.

My point is to make our best recordings, it may require us to learn new playing techniques. I wish I had been more open to it 20 years ago.

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by jim1960

That works, but both the guitar and the vocal are going to be off axis so not as good as either could be if the mics were positioned normally.

IMO, that works. Period. You don't need to be afraid of it or feel like you're compromising.