Tonedexter newbie questions

[guitarwebguy]

So, after reading lots of reviews over the last year, I bought a Tonedexter and am slowly experimenting with mic placement, pickup strength, and guitar pickups. This part I think I am working well with (I’m using a Heil PR35 mic - I have a Rode NT1-A that I could also use). Where I am lost is using the various wave maps I’ve saved. My apologies if my questions have been covered elsewhere I missed them in the manual.

1 - I understand the use of the left side of the select knob as a blend between raw pickup and mic input, but what about the right side of the select knob? What are CH0, CH1, and CH2?? How are those settings used?

2 - I’ve noticed that my wave maps seem to be very trebly/jangly and overdriven/distorted sounding. I lowered the pickup input on the tonedexter so it’s generally green light with occasional yellow and have tried increasing the distance between the mic and the guitar (and lowered the volume of the pickups on the guitar as well.

NOTE: My instruments: 12 string banjo w/K&K pu, Breedlove 6 string w/K&K Power Mix Pure system, Emerald X20-12 w/K&K Power Mix Pure system, Breedlove 12 string w/K&K Trinity system (mic + Power Mix Pure)

2 - Does adjusting the notch/bass/treble during the training have any impact on the wave maps being created? If so, which input is it affecting? Does the notch/bass/treble only affect the final output from the Tonedexter or only one of the inputs, and if so, which one?

I excited to get this to work. My apologies if it seems a bit lengthy - TIA

[shufflebeat]

Ch0 is just 100% wavemap with no added "mystery Audiosprockets Sauce" added. Ch1&2 are just different levels of "character" processing. I've experimented with this but found no practical benefit. It's much more useful for me to stay <100% and blend to taste.

I find input signal is best mainly in the yellow. The TD likes a steady level to latch on to rather than wide fluctuations. For this I tend to repeat a single note until the training begins proper.

Does that really say "12 string banjo"? - nightmare!

For paired strings (12 string gtr, mandolin, etc) I find playing one string (of the pair) a far more reliable way to train the TD which seems to get confused by the interaction of similar sources.

My best results have been achieved using an sm57 and playing the most solid sounding string(s) only. Anything with complicated overtones (commonly wound G and plain E) the TD tries to compensate for the complexity and mucks up the better part of the training.

Better mic placement (cleaner, more integrated sound) will probably improve that perceived distortion rather than dropping the input level. If there's no clipping/distortion apparent on the way in the TD won't add any. Phasing issues on the other hand can sound a bit like that.

To my knowledge tone controls are post wavemap and don't affect training although I'm happy to be corrected on this.

[rmp]

1 - I understand the use of the left side of the select knob as a blend between raw pickup and mic input, but what about the right side of the select knob? What are CH0, CH1, and CH2?? How are those settings used?

The manual explains it pretty clearly, Shuffle Beat mentioned exactly what I understand those settings to be. One thing I can add, when I first started using the tonedexter, I was always setting character to the LEFT of CHO but I finally realized that the more I use it, CHO setting seems to work the best for me unless I'm in a live/band kind of setting. Solo, CHO does seem to be the closest to what I hear unplugged from my acoustics. It took me some time to "like" it since I was so used to a more tweaked sound from the UST + my EQ/compressor etc..

2 - I’ve noticed that my wave maps seem to be very trebly/jangly and overdriven/distorted sounding. I lowered the pickup input on the tonedexter so it’s generally green light with occasional yellow and have tried increasing the distance between the mic and the guitar (and lowered the volume of the pickups on the guitar as well.

if you have multiple guitars, they will all have a different level setting. IME I found that things work the best if I keep the trim set at around 11 o'clock. at that setting, none of my guitars will peak into "red" and no, you don't want that added to your signal, it's nastiness..


3 - Does adjusting the notch/bass/treble during the training have any impact on the wave maps being created? If so, which input is it affecting? Does the notch/bass/treble only affect the final output from the Tonedexter or only one of the inputs, and if so, which one?

No, I believe they are bypassed in training mode, all that the TD is doing is listening to is the pickup and the mic when it's training. things like Bass/Treble/Notch/Character have no effect.

Good luck and have fun. I love mine, it does a great job taking the peizo out of the peizo!

I have 4 six strings and one 12 string that I've mapped. It takes some time, but you'll get there. Mic and Mic placement does make a difference. I usually create 4 or 5 maps when I'm training or retraining a preset. Then I usually save 2 of the best, and use one of those 2 that seems to work the best for what I'm doing at the time.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by guitarwebguy

…My instruments: 12 string banjo w/K&K pu, Breedlove 6 string w/K&K Power Mix Pure system, Emerald X20-12 w/K&K Power Mix Pure system, Breedlove 12 string w/K&K Trinity system (mic + Power Mix Pure)

Hi gwg

Your Power Mix Pure is a dual source (K&K Pure mini, PLUS under saddle piezo) and it is battery powered by an internal preamp. This is almost certainly contributing to your overdriven sound, and likely contributing to the other tone issues as well.

I've never played around with the Mix Pure, so I'm wondering if you use a mono cable (standard guitar cable) and unplug the battery if the K&K Pure Mini will operate passively.

Recording with a K&K Pure mini passively is the recommended method to use the ToneDexter. All 4 of my acoustic guitars are K&K Trinity systems and passive (use external preamps) so I just plug in a mono cable directly from the ToneDexter without going through a preamp, while recording waveforms and to perform live with the ToneDexter.

Hope this helps…

[James May]

The Heil PR-35, while a good vocal mic, is not the best choice for training with Dexter. It has a 6 dB peak around 5-6KHz and is likely contributing to the jangly sound you mention. The NT-1 has a peak above 10KHz, so it may work better. Our recommended mics will work better still.

To clarify the Character control a bit further:
CH2 is the full mic sound (and also has the feedback mitigation applied at the end of training, unless you start on slot 22 then no feedback mitigation).
CH0 is a minimum phase transform of CH2 that removes the extra time and spaciousness from the WaveMap. Same tonality, but better for cutting through an ensemble.
CH1 is midway between CH2 and CH0 in sound.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by James May

The Heil PR-35, while a good vocal mic, is not the best choice for training with Dexter. It has a 6 dB peak around 5-6KHz and is likely contributing to the jangly sound you mention. The NT-1 has a peak above 10KHz, so it may work better. Our recommended mics will work better still.

To clarify the Character control a bit further:
CH2 is the full mic sound (and also has the feedback mitigation applied at the end of training, unless you start on slot 22 then no feedback mitigation).
CH0 is a minimum phase transform of CH2 that removes the extra time and spaciousness from the WaveMap. Same tonality, but better for cutting through an ensemble.
CH1 is midway between CH2 and CH0 in sound.

Hi James…

I wondered about that after reading the original post, so thanks for clarifying.

Am I correct in stating that it's better to use a passive pickup source to record waveforms, and for live play? I sure don't want to spread mis-information.

[James May]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi James…

I wondered about that after reading the original post, so thanks for clarifying.

Am I correct in stating that it's better to use a passive pickup source to record waveforms, and for live play? I sure don't want to spread mis-information.

Active or passive pickups work equally well, with the caveat that if you have an active pickup / preamp, it is not distorting or causing non-linear behavior like soft clipping or compression. When operated in their intended ranges, most do not exhibit this kind of behavior and should therefore cause no issues with ToneDexter.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by James May

Active or passive pickups work equally well, with the caveat that if you have an active pickup / preamp, it is not distorting or causing non-linear behavior like soft clipping or compression. When operated in their intended ranges, most do not exhibit this kind of behavior and should therefore cause no issues with ToneDexter.

Hi James

Thanks for the correction/information.

[shufflebeat]

Originally Posted by James May

To clarify the Character control a bit further:
CH2 is the full mic sound (and also has the feedback mitigation applied at the end of training, unless you start on slot 22 then no feedback mitigation).
CH0 is a minimum phase transform of CH2 that removes the extra time and spaciousness from the WaveMap. Same tonality, but better for cutting through an ensemble.
CH1 is midway between CH2 and CH0 in sound.

That makes a lot of sense and sounds like a well thought out and practical feature. It doesn't really tally with my experience, however, and having come at the issue without having rtfm properly (obviously) I feel I'm led by my observations more than my expectations.

I have temporarily retired my TD as I've recently picked up a new guitar and am struggling to map it to my satisfaction. When time allows I'll be interpreting my experience with this info in mind and may feed back here if there's anything to report.

Thanks for the clarification, J.

[BluesKing777]

Originally Posted by James May

The Heil PR-35, while a good vocal mic, is not the best choice for training with Dexter. It has a 6 dB peak around 5-6KHz and is likely contributing to the jangly sound you mention. The NT-1 has a peak above 10KHz, so it may work better. Our recommended mics will work better still.

To clarify the Character control a bit further:
CH2 is the full mic sound (and also has the feedback mitigation applied at the end of training, unless you start on slot 22 then no feedback mitigation).
CH0 is a minimum phase transform of CH2 that removes the extra time and spaciousness from the WaveMap. Same tonality, but better for cutting through an ensemble.
CH1 is midway between CH2 and CH0 in sound.

It all probably sounds like 'Double Dutch' to the newbies but it won't take long to get it!

A question for James May:

Which 'easy' setting of a realistic acoustic guitar sound for solo guitar of the above mentioned would you suggest for a plain K&K, then which 'easy' setting for a plain Fishman passive undersaddle pickup?

BluesKing777.

[James May]

Originally Posted by BluesKing777

It all probably sounds like 'Double Dutch' to the newbies but it won't take long to get it!

A question for James May:

Which 'easy' setting of a realistic acoustic guitar sound for solo guitar of the above mentioned would you suggest for a plain K&K, then which 'easy' setting for a plain Fishman passive undersaddle pickup?

BluesKing777.

If you're playing solo guitar, I would favor CH2 in both UST and SBT cases. It's just richer sounding. But, if the room is quite lively, CH1 or CH0 may actually work better in cutting through the wash of room sound.

If you're with an ensemble, then CH1, CH0, then BLEND in that order, depending on how much trouble you have cutting through the mix.

[guitarwebguy]

Thanks to everyone, especially James for the clarification re: CH0, CH1, and CH2 and the mic suggestion. Step one will be getting one of the mics on the list, and then looking to find the sweet spot for mic placement. When I’ve done that I’ll check back in! Thanks again to everyone - that’s what makes the forum so great!

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by BluesKing777

…Which 'easy' setting of a realistic acoustic guitar sound for solo guitar of the above mentioned would you suggest for a plain K&K.

Hi BK777

Hi, I'm not James. But I do use my ToneDexter with K&K Pure mini, and I find that I start with CH2, but try both others. My gigging partner/friend who also has one will tell me which sounds best in the PA and that's where I set it.

[rmp]

I know, I'm glad guys like James hang here! Great posts by the man!

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by rmp

I know, I'm glad guys like James hang here! Great posts by the man!

Hi rmp

Builders, designers and inventors…
They know things we benefit from!!!

I second saying "Thanks" to James…