Tonedexter Training - Strings

[hiddenmickey]

Is it better to train a Tonedexter with fresh strings or broken-in strings?

[Brent Hahn]

Interesting question. New strings are going to have a clear high end that an FOH mixer is going to roll off anyway for a couple reasons.

I'd also ask if, in creating the wavemap, what happens if you play just the treble strings, or just the bass strings? Might be fun to compare wavemaps made with, say, the intros of "Johnny B. Goode" and "Smoke on the Water."

A lot of artful audio engineering involves using off-label techniques to trick the gear into giving you what you want. It wouldn't surprise me if this applies to the Tonedexter as well.

[NoodleFingers]

As I recall, James May (one of the inventors) says that the freshness or type of string makes basically no difference in training.

[shufflebeat]

I've spent far too much time messing with the TD and here's my £17.50's worth (post brexit).

The TD "listens" to the pickup signal and the mic signal simultaneously. It then "compares" both and calibrates the response of the TD via a wave map to make the pickup sound (a bit) like the mic.

If you have old strings both the p/u and the mic'd signal will be relatively dull, with new strings they will be relatively bright. There will be similar difference between signals (p/u vs mic) in either case.

In theory there would be a bigger difference if you train the TD with old strings then perform with new ones but even that is a simple EQ tweak to compensate, no-one will notice but you.

For those who want to experiment I've been recording both mic and p/u then playing them back into the TD to try to standardise the process. My main conclusion is that it is more "hit & miss" than I would like so when I do get something that sounds good (and sometimes they sound really good) I copy the wave map in several safe places.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by shufflebeat

The TD "listens" to the pickup signal and the mic signal simultaneously. It then "compares" both and calibrates the response of the TD via a wave map to make the pickup sound (a bit) like the mic.

Yep, that's my experience. Strings don't matter. One thing that can matter is if you have an active pickup and EQ controls, since those change the sound of the pickup but not the mic.

(Brett Hahn) I'd also ask if, in creating the wavemap, what happens if you play just the treble strings, or just the bass strings? Might be fun to compare wavemaps made with, say, the intros of "Johnny B. Goode" and "Smoke on the Water."

Ideally, you play a range, as the TD instructions detail, and as Molly describes in her demo (I did the same in mine). I'm not totally clear that it matters all that much - again, TD is learning the difference, and that is there regardless of the strings played. Never the less, when I train, I try to play all over the neck and work in different sounds (single notes, fingerpicking, strumming). It only takes a few seconds to cover the basics. But I get good results, even if I don't get around to all those things.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Yep, that's my experience. Strings don't matter. One thing that can matter is if you have an active pickup and EQ controls, since those change the sound of the pickup but not the mic.

Hi Doug
Do you think the ToneDexter would change with dead strings versus fresh ones (same brand, weight)?

Some folks prefer dead strings.

[Peter Z]

My TD usually eats away some high end that I miss in the wavemap. If I turn down the high end on the guitars preamp during the training I get a brighter wavemap.
The pickup signal is darker and the mic signal is the same, there is more difference in that register.

The same happens, if I use a channelstrip in the for the mic and increase the highs there. That works even better.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Doug
Do you think the ToneDexter would change with dead strings versus fresh ones (same brand, weight)?

Some folks prefer dead strings.

Not sure what you're asking Larry. TD figures out the difference between what the pickup hears and what the mic hears, then corrects the pickup. I don't think there's enough difference between dead and new strings to have a big impact, so you could train with dead and then play with new, or vice versa, and I suspect you'd be fine because the deficiency of the pickup is the same regardless.

If you mean can you train with dead, and play with dead?, then sure, no problem. If you mean train one way and perform another, I guess you could imagine a scenario where the strings are so different that there are major frequency ranges that TD has no idea what to do with because they were absent during training, and present once you change strings, or I suppose strings could be wonky in some way that affects the pickup sound differently than the acoustic sound, but I doubt that's a significant effect unless you're talking strings that are decades old (it happens...).

I haven't specifically tried any experiments around this, I tend to keep my strings fairly up to date. James May should have a better answer, tho I seem to recall this has come up before and the answer was "shouldn't matter".

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Peter Z

My TD usually eats away some high end that I miss in the wavemap. If I turn down the high end on the guitars preamp during the training I get a brighter wavemap.
The pickup signal is darker and the mic signal is the same, there is more difference in that register.

The same happens, if I use a channelstrip in the for the mic and increase the highs there. That works even better.

For a while, I was training by recording the pickup and the mic, then feeding both into ToneDexter. That gave me some repeatability, so when new firmware came out with some improvement, it was easier to recreate all my wavemaps. But it also allowed me to try to fool ToneDexter by EQing either the mic track or the pickup. That was mostly me messing around trying to understand what was possible, and I've gotten away from doing that - didn't seem to be actually helping much.

[shufflebeat]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

For a while, I was training by recording the pickup and the mic, then feeding both into ToneDexter. That gave me some repeatability, so when new firmware came out with some improvement, it was easier to recreate all my wavemaps. But it also allowed me to try to fool ToneDexter by EQing either the mic track or the pickup. That was mostly me messing around trying to understand what was possible, and I've gotten away from doing that - didn't seem to be actually helping much.

My experience as well although, as a habitual messer-around, I havent been able to translate this into more useful behaviour.

We live in hope - it will be our downfall.