Anybody else relatively "jacked" but not "ripped"?

[blue]

Originally Posted by fitness1

What percentage of the population do you think can safely get their working heart rate out of their predicted training zone (above 85% of the predicted maximum heart rate) like that?

What percentage of the population would GREATLY benefit from training in their zone for extended periods rather than doing nothing at all (which is what the largest percentage does)?

For most, "cardio vascular health" simply means a lack of any signs of disease. For athletes, it's a different matter.

First of all we aren't, in this thread, talking about people who are doing nothing at all.

"maximum heart rate" is on a sliding scale. Age, general health. Current condition, etc. Everyone can reach their safe maximum heart rate. Work with a doctor to determine what that is. Stand up. check your heartrate. Now stretch your arms out in front of you flex(create tension) in every muscle in your body down to your fingers and toes. hold that for 30 seconds. Check your heart rate. It can be that easy for someone who is at risk to reach a doctor recommended target heart rate.

If you define cardio vascular health as a "lack of any signs of disease" it's primarily about nutrition and lifestyle (as in drinking, smoking, stress, adequate sleep). You can't out-exercise bad diet and lifestyle.

Not an attack. A serious question:

When was the last time you seriously did research and evaluated your approach and techniques against the current knowledge? Has your nutrition and training advice remained essentially unchanged other than perhaps "new" movements/exercises/devices for 5 years, 10, 20?

Again, not an attack. But as the old saw goes, one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. There are 10s of millions doing the same thing over and over again and not seeing results.

[fitness1]

Originally Posted by blue

First of all we aren't, in this thread, talking about people who are doing nothing at all.
.

There are a lot of references in this thread that make it seem like if you aren't training like suggested in the OP, you aren't training correctly.......and there has been no mention of what population is being "talked about".

That's why I said what I did. There are a lot of 50, 60, 70 somethings viewing this. I'm trying to save someone from making an attempt at this (like one 70 year old already mentioned) and having some serious problems.

In this business, in this era, safety HAS to be the focus, or you will lose everything you worked for very quickly.

[fitness1]

Originally Posted by blue

. There are 10s of millions doing the same thing over and over again and not seeing results.

And there are 10's of millions that wouldn't benefit from this type of program either - that's my point.

[Dirk Hofman]

The reason people aren't seeing results is because diet. Not because cardio doesn't work. As you say, you can't out-exercise bad diet.

Much of what passes for current knowledge does not stand up to scientific scrutiny in the realm of diet. For example, you list a host of foods high in saturated fat as part of your diabetic diet. I have hesitated to comment because the current zeitgeist vilifies carbs and celebrate fats, and information to the contrary always seems to cause hard feelings, but it concerns me to see this given out as advice. It concerns me that you may be making your diabetes worse with this approach.

The facts are straightforward. Saturated fats are a primary cause and primary driver of diabetes. The mechanism is complex, includes issues with fatty liver disease, but the core is simple. Fat builds up in muscle cells and through a series of enzyme reactions, blocks the ability of muscle cells to absorb sugar. No absorption, all the glucose you eat stays in the bloodstream. Recipe for diabetes. Diabetes is almost unheard of in people who eat primarily carbs and whole plant foods, and is very low in people who eat a Mediterranean diet which consists of plants and fish with healthy fats. Unsaturated fats do not cause this reaction in the cells, it's only saturated fats. Dairy is horrible in this regard. Any dairy.

There is a litany of research on this, but the misinformation and myths about carbs persist. IMO mostly because the "fats are all good" story is a story people want to hear because it lets people keep eating what they want to eat.

Diet and Diabetes: Why Saturated Fats Are the Real Enemy: https://ucdintegrativemedicine.com/2...emy/#gs.8v98gx

Insulin resistance is caused by fat.
Fat build-up inside (muscle) cells creates toxic fatty breakdown products and free radicals that ‘block’ the insulin-signaling process, close the ‘glucose gate,’ and make blood sugar levels rise.

And this cycle can happen really fast.

In fact, insulin resistance can occur in 180 short minutes (just 3 hours!) after the consumption of fat.

A ketogenic diet can mask diabetes by reducing sugar in the bloodstream to a very low level, but the root mechanism is still there. Insulin resistance is likely acute, but with little glucose in the bloodstream, symptoms are masked. Keto also helps people lose weight in the short term, and this helps with diabetes, but such diets do not do well in studies over the long term. Most people have a really hard time actually staying in ketosis and actually eliminating sugars from their diet. The food supply conspires against them.

The simplest, and healthiest answer is to limit saturated fat in the diet, eat a lot of fiber, and limit simple sugars. Basically "Eat food, not too much, mostly plants".

[blue]

Originally Posted by fitness1

There are a lot of references in this thread that make it seem like if you aren't training like suggested in the OP, you aren't training correctly.......and there has been no mention of what population is being "talked about".

That's why I said what I did. There are a lot of 50, 60, 70 somethings viewing this. I'm trying to save someone from making an attempt at this (like one 70 year old already mentioned) and having some serious problems.

In this business, in this era, safety HAS to be the focus, or you will lose everything you worked for very quickly.

That seventy year old has a base of fitness, a considered diet, and "knows what he's doing". to such an individual, please tell me what the danger is.

[blue]

Originally Posted by Dirk Hofman

The simplest, and healthiest answer is to limit saturated fat in the diet, eat a lot of fiber, and limit simple sugars. Basically "Eat food, not too much, mostly plants".

High carb low fat can do pretty much what a so called Ketogenic diet does. But where those "high carbs" is the point that doesn't get enough attention. And I'm not talking whole grain products as being the answer.

And what the general public thinks of as a Ketogenic diet is frankly not that productive. Eating a ton of butter, bacon, MCT oil is not a long term strategy for optimum results. Again, there's what people have been doing for years, and there's what the "cutting edge" science says.

"My brother in law had bulletproof coffee every morning and took fatbombs to work for snacking" might help you drop some weight at first. But you'll plateau, and go on forums and say Keto doesn't work.

If you are carrying excess fat, you don't need to add fat to your diet. You will use the fat you are eating instead of the fat you are carrying. It's more complicated than that metabolically, but as always efficiency wins. It's much easier to use what's available than take stuff out of storage.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by blue

First of all we aren't, in this thread, talking about people who are doing nothing at all.

I'm afraid I've injected a lot of talk about people who might be doing nothing into this thread, such as asking what the context was for Dr. Naiman to state jogging doesn't do much at all.

Sorry, for the confusion. I am finding this topic interesting, however.

[fitness1]

Originally Posted by blue

That seventy year old has a base of fitness, a considered diet, and "knows what he's doing". to such an individual, please tell me what the danger is.

That he's not the only one seeing this.

I've said all I need to say here from a professional standpoint. I try my best to help people avoid the issues I've seen over and over again. Can't save 'em all.

Anybody else relatively "pudgy" but not "fat"? Well, not enormous...

[Dirk Hofman]

Originally Posted by blue

High carb low fat can do pretty much what a so called Ketogenic diet does. But where those "high carbs" is the point that doesn't get enough attention. And I'm not talking whole grain products as being the answer.

And what the general public thinks of as a Ketogenic diet is frankly not that productive. Eating a ton of butter, bacon, MCT oil is not a long term strategy for optimum results. Again, there's what people have been doing for years, and there's what the "cutting edge" science says.

"My brother in law had bulletproof coffee every morning and took fatbombs to work for snacking" might help you drop some weight at first. But you'll plateau, and go on forums and say Keto doesn't work.

If you are carrying excess fat, you don't need to add fat to your diet. You will use the fat you are eating instead of the fat you are carrying. It's more complicated than that metabolically, but as always efficiency wins. It's much easier to use what's available than take stuff out of storage.

My comments are limited to the role of saturated fat in diabetes. Whatever one wants to call the version of keto or HFLC, if one eats a lot of saturated fat, the chance of diabetes is dramatically elevated, and if one already has it, it's as far from a treatment for the disease as I can imagine. If one isn't eating a lot of SF, there likely won't be an issue, even if one consumes a lot of simple carbs because insulin resistance isn't a reaction to glucose, it's a reaction to saturated fat.

Saturated fat is a primary cause of diabetes. There is current science behind this as well as science going back decades. I just bring it up as a concern for you or anyone fighting this disease.

There is some debate about which kinds of saturated fats are worse, but it's well established that diets which contain very low amounts of saturated fat have been shown to treat and even reverse diabetes.

[blue]

Originally Posted by fitness1

That he's not the only one seeing this.

I've said all I need to say here from a professional standpoint. I try my best to help people avoid the issues I've seen over and over again. Can't save 'em all.

So do it your way or suffer? When I asked you the last time you changed up what you serve up to clients, you never responded. Instead you just talked about how dangerous everything other than what you support is.

I never said what I'm talking about is the only way. I said that people can get better results than they are getting, with less of a time investment.

If someone wants to try to find the time to spend 3 to 5 hours a week at the gym, and jog an additional 2 to 3 hours for "cardio", by all means, go for it.

Like you said. Can't save 'em all.

[blue]

Originally Posted by Dirk Hofman

My comments are limited to the role of saturated fat in diabetes. Whatever one wants to call the version of keto or HFLC, if one eats a lot of saturated fat, the chance of diabetes is dramatically elevated, and if one already has it, it's as far from a treatment for the disease as I can imagine. If one isn't eating a lot of SF, there likely won't be an issue, even if one consumes a lot of simple carbs because insulin resistance isn't a reaction to glucose, it's a reaction to saturated fat.

Saturated fat is a primary cause of diabetes. There is current science behind this as well as science going back decades. I just bring it up as a concern for you or anyone fighting this disease.

There is some debate about which kinds of saturated fats are worse, but it's well established that diets which contain very low amounts of saturated fat have been shown to treat and even reverse diabetes.

Not going to get into it in-depth here. As a reformed type 2 diabetic, who has been off all meds for over a year while maintaining a 5.6 A1c. I know a thing or two.

Fat is a problem. Specifically fat and high carbs AT THE SAME TIME.

But saturated fat from healthy sources is not. You talked about insulin. You know what it does in terms of fat storage. And you also know that eating saturated fat is not what spikes insulin.

If someone stands by the dogma of "saturated fat bad" They should consider doing some researcher. And not just going to the American Heart Association.

Either read The Big Fat Surprise by Nina Teicholz, or watch some of her talks on youtube as a starting point. If you want more info, there's a hundred or so pages of research studies in the back of her book for folks to peruse.

[fitness1]

Originally Posted by blue

So do it your way or suffer? .

I never said ANYTHING like that.

I'm not locking horns with you anymore - we've had this dance before and I just don't have time or energy for it right now.

[Dirk Hofman]

I realize there are people out there who have some new ideas about this topic. I am unconvinced by any of the arguments. There is simply too much data showing the saturated fat issue and it continues to come in. I don’t know what saturated fat from healthy sources means. Certainly there are healthy fats which do not cause insulin resistance if that’s what you mean.

I’ve said my bit, I would simply encourage folks to do their own digging.

[Sage97]

Originally Posted by blue

I failed. I was going for funny. Or at least fun...

I actually chuckled a bit so definitely a success.