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Old 07-03-2020, 10:18 PM
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rick-slo rick-slo is offline
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Default Track Delay Post Recording

I mentioned in other threads that I occasionally use a bit of track delay on the R or L channel of a stereo recording. When I use it it is just a bit and the difference is subtle - say I may have perhaps a slight preference in warmth and/or centering I hear in my headphones (doubtful noticeable difference in room speakers).
So if you have some good headphones with good detail here is a bit of a recording of mine repeated twice w/o a track delay and then twice with 0.15 millisecond L delay.
http://dcoombsguitar.com/Misc/TheClawDelayOffOn.wav
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Old 07-03-2020, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
I mentioned in other threads that I occasionally use a bit of track delay on the R or L channel of a stereo recording. When I use it it is just a bit and the difference is subtle - say I may have perhaps a slight preference in warmth and/or centering I hear in my headphones (doubtful noticeable difference in room speakers).
So if you have some good headphones with good detail here is a bit of a recording of mine repeated twice w/o a track delay and then twice with 0.15 millisecond L delay.
http://dcoombsguitar.com/Misc/TheClawDelayOffOn.wav
Subtle... But I prefer without. With the delay, the Haas effect kicks in and it feels like the track pulls right ever so slightly, as it kind of has to. Subtle enough that it doesn't leap out, tho.

BTW, you may remember we were all playing around with the stereo enhancement trick Howard Emerson used some years back, where you do a pitch shift +/- on each side. I was never able to get it to work without getting glitches from the pitch shift. I recently came across the Eventide Microshift plugin, $39, if I recall. I tried it, and it seems to work quite well for this, no glitches, and it does create an enhanced stereo. I don't care for it on my stuff, so far, but it sounded good on Howard's tracks.

Last edited by Doug Young; 07-04-2020 at 12:21 AM.
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Old 07-04-2020, 12:21 AM
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Subtle... But I prefer without. With the delay, the Haas effect kicks in and it feels like the track pulls right ever so slightly, as it kind of has to. Subtle enough that it doesn't leap out, tho.

BTW, you may remember we were all playing around with the stereo enhancement trick Howard Emerson used some years back, where you do a pitch shift +/- on each side. I was never able to get it to work without getting glitches from the pitch shift. I recently came across the Eventide Microsoft plugin, $39, if I recall. I tried it, and it seems to work quite well for this, no glitches, and it does create an enhanced stereo. I don't care for it on my stuff, so far, but it sounded good on Howard's tracks.
See with my DAW gear and headphones it sounds more centered and smoother, but it's bound to vary with playback headphones, and personal preferences as it is a subtle thing. The main thing there is a audible difference. If the mikes had been in a slight different positions when recording the given delay added would result in perhaps the opposite opinions.
The Haas effect can widen the perceived soundstage as well as centration of it. The centration part can be compensated with tweaks in volume of R versus L channel - all within reason of course.

Regarding pitch +/- pitch shifting I did like the the effect when I used it here with what is available in Ableton Live :http://dcoombsguitar.com/Guitar%20Mu...eThingDemo.wav
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Last edited by rick-slo; 07-04-2020 at 12:29 AM.
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Old 07-04-2020, 12:26 AM
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See with my DAW gear and headphones it sounds more centered and smoother, but it's bound to vary with playback headphones, and personal preferences as it is a subtle thing. The main thing there is a audible difference. If the mikes had been in a slight different positions when recording the given delay added would result in perhaps the opposite opinions.
I could imagine this being useful if you need to compensate for a mic being delayed already - so you're 'un-haasifying' an existing haas effect - basically correcting for a delay. I think I also played with this as a way to deal with 2 guitars on the duet CD I did with Teja Gerken, with the thought that I could have both guitars occupy the whole stereo field, but have each one appear to be on its own side. I don't think I ended up using it in any final mixes, tho.
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Old 07-04-2020, 12:39 AM
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I could imagine this being useful if you need to compensate for a mic being delayed already - so you're 'un-haasifying' an existing haas effect - basically correcting for a delay. I think I also played with this as a way to deal with 2 guitars on the duet CD I did with Teja Gerken, with the thought that I could have both guitars occupy the whole stereo field, but have each one appear to be on its own side. I don't think I ended up using it in any final mixes, tho.
Yes, well there is the point I made earlier. Many times I like the the sound with the mikes different distances out (for example perhaps the right mike in closer to the guitar body below the bridge and the left mike several inches further out). When I do that I can compensate any timing issues that might result with a delay. The guitar is a broad sound source which complicates just what sound is reaching what mike from what part of the guitar.
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Old 07-04-2020, 01:16 AM
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Yes, well there is the point I made earlier. Many times I like the the sound with the mikes different distances out (for example perhaps the right mike in closer to the guitar body below the bridge and the left mike several inches further out). When I do that I can compensate any timing issues that might result with a delay. The guitar is a broad sound source which complicates just what sound is reaching what mike from what part of the guitar.
The plugin we were mentioning would do that as well. Given two sources, it even displays how much distance mics are off by in cm (or by samples), and then corrects by delaying one. I'd just say that with spaced pairs, it would likely correct "too well", destroying the phase relationship in that mic setup. But I suppose if the mics were far enough off, it might do something equivalent. You can override it or set the delay manually, too. So it ends up being just a sample delay that can automatically detect the delay between two sources and suggest a correction.
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Old 07-04-2020, 05:14 AM
mondoslug mondoslug is offline
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Greetings, the 3rd & 4th examples, left side is 100% wet .15ms?

I used to like wide everything, full mixes, solo acst gtrs, etc...as i started turning into a fossil though I go for it less & less, depending.

On this recording I prefer the first two myself, at least in headphones...I think. Nice playing!
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Old 07-04-2020, 09:38 AM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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Great playing! My feeling about this sort of thing is that if you need good headphones to appreciate it, it's not worth doing. Later on when the rest of the house is out of bed, I'll play them both on the studio rig and see how they mono out.
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Old 07-04-2020, 10:41 AM
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Greetings, the 3rd & 4th examples, left side is 100% wet .15ms?
I used to like wide everything, full mixes, solo acst gtrs, etc...as i started turning into a fossil though I go for it less & less, depending.

On this recording I prefer the first two myself, at least in headphones...I think. Nice playing!
Track delay 0.15ms, not reverb. Wet does not apply to this. Point of using is some tonal shift which results from some of the higher frequencies being audibly more in phase than others. 0.15 milliseconds represents about 2" distance change of a mike location.

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Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Great playing! My feeling about this sort of thing is that if you need good headphones to appreciate it, it's not worth doing. Later on when the rest of the house is out of bed, I'll play them both on the studio rig and see how they mono out.
I have Grado headphones which have a quite detailed sound and I hear a difference. In the sample I posted the differences are small and preferences not surprisingly vary. As far as being worth doing, well it is very easy and quick to play with it. That said most of the time I don't use any track delays though it's worth it to me to take a minute to check it out.
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Last edited by rick-slo; 07-04-2020 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 07-04-2020, 10:47 AM
Wrighty Wrighty is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
I mentioned in other threads that I occasionally use a bit of track delay on the R or L channel of a stereo recording. When I use it it is just a bit and the difference is subtle - say I may have perhaps a slight preference in warmth and/or centering I hear in my headphones (doubtful noticeable difference in room speakers).
So if you have some good headphones with good detail here is a bit of a recording of mine repeated twice w/o a track delay and then twice with 0.15 millisecond L delay.
http://dcoombsguitar.com/Misc/TheClawDelayOffOn.wav
Can't beat a bit of Jerry Reed ;-)

I prefer the delayed version - just seems a little more balanced / warmer to me.
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Old 07-04-2020, 10:50 AM
mondoslug mondoslug is offline
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No, I got that...you moved it 0.15ms. I just wasn't sure if you did that or if had it through a stereo plug where one side was actually 100 percent wet at 0.15ms is all I meant.

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Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Track delay 0.15ms, not reverb. Wet does not apply to this. Point of using
is some tonal shift of which frequencies are more in phase than others. 0.15 milliseconds represents about 2" distance change of a mike location.





I have Grado headphones which have a quite detailed sound and I hear a difference. In the sample I posted the differences are small and preferences not surprisingly vary. As far as being worth doing, well it is very easy and quick to play with and headphones are my practically my sole way of listening to music these days.
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